Why Teens Shut Down—and What Parents Misread About It with Mary Wilcox Smith

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Wanting to do the right thing, being responsible, making the right decision. Those are all prefrontal cortex thinking brain capacities. And for kids, they can use that when their survival brain, which is the other part of the brain, is calm, is not worried about their relationship with you, which is critical even though if they're telling you it's not, they can access that part of the brain, making good decisions, being responsible, being cooperative. And once they're in that part of the brain, now they're gonna start to use the modeling and the influence and the ruling that you've been setting up all of over the years.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

There comes a moment in every parent's life when the role they've known for years begins to change. The children they once carried, guided, and protected become adults. And suddenly the questions become different. How do you stay connected without holding on too tightly? How do you continue loving well when relationships become complicated? And while every family is different, no parent should have to navigate these questions alone. Each week, James Moppet brings together experts and parents who have walked this world before to explore the realities of parenting adult children. Through honest conversation and practical wisdom, listeners find hope for the journey ahead. Whether your relationship is thriving, strained, or somewhere in between, there is hope, there is healing, and there is always the possibility of a stronger connection. ABCs of Parenting Adult Children. Helping parents navigate loving their adult sons and daughters well.

SPEAKER_05 1:52

Hello and welcome to ABC's Parenting Adult Children podcast. My name is James Moffat, and I will be your host. So welcome back. And today we're going straight into the real conversations parents struggle with, the breakdowns, the silence, and tension, and the moments where connection feels impossible. And to help us navigate that, we're joined by Mary Wilcox Smith. We're not doing canned questions today. We're digging into the heart of communications with teens and young adults. What works, what doesn't, and how to rebuild trust when things get messy. Mary Wilcox Smith, how are you doing today? I am great.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_05 2:33

Yes, absolutely. And do me a favor and introduce yourself to the listening audience.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

So I'm Mary. I live outside of DC. I'm a New Englander, but I lived all over the world. And then I had four daughters. And I kind of thought parenting would all be the same as my life. Like, do your best, try to win at everything, be a perfectionist, which is not a good thing, and it'll all be at workout. And I had some tough years. So I decided I wanted to help parents more. So I got some new degrees to help parents. And I have a method I call the micro step method, which we may or may not get into today. Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_05 3:13

So where do you see parents unintentionally losing credibility or influence with their teens and young adults? And what's actually happening underneath those moments?

SPEAKER_01 3:23

So do me a favor and just define losing, you said losing credibility.

SPEAKER_05 3:28

Yeah. Where do you see parents unintentionally losing credibility or influence with their teens and young adults?

SPEAKER_01 3:35

So credibility or influence.

SPEAKER_05 3:39

Let me explain it a little better.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Yeah, that's what I meant. Like what when you say that, what do you actually mean by it? I can interpret.

SPEAKER_05 3:45

Right. So so at some point when you're you have you know preteens, teenagers, right? So when teenagers get, you know, between 14 and 16 years of age, all of a sudden you're the idiot, you're out of touch with reality, and they know more than you do, right? You're you're still trying to communicate with them, you're still trying to help them. There's that phase where the switch is flipped, and all of a sudden you don't know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Okay. So where do they lose it? What are those moments where they lose it? So I would say, you know, number one is sort of walking the walk, right? If you're going to say certain things and model something completely different, you can get away with that for a while. But you're right that when they become teens, you know, they're they're testing everything, right? They're pulling away, they need you desperately, but they're looking for any chink in the armor, as kids always are. But I would say, you know, from a real basis of credibility, if you're going to use the word credibility, I would think when you say one thing and do another, that's that's a tough time to be doing that. Because they start to see that. And you're everything to them, and they rely on you for everything. And I think that that can create it a little bit of distance, right? Because we're used to them just listening to us and believing us. So I would say that's number one. I think another really big thing is, or a big moment, is well, let me end that first one. Do you have any questions on that? No. That's good. Okay, because I would say a second one that's really important is I think when children are younger, and you know, I work a lot with, you know, up to preteen as not about preteen, up to really that 14-year-old age. I do a lot with teens too, but when I'm working just with a parent, I they're such change agents when the kids are younger. And they're still change agents when the kids are tweens, uh teens and tweens, but it becomes harder, right? It doesn't happen as quickly as when they're younger. And so when they're younger, one thing that we all do is we we know everything. We pontificate, we judge things, we tell them we know everything, we talk at them. Now, in a perfect world, you're not doing that when they're younger. But I think when that carries into their teendom, that gets hard because we want them to listen to us, but we don't want to make it so obvious because they don't want to be talked at anymore. And that's just gonna drive them crazy. And so oftentimes when I'm working with someone with a younger child and I'm working on certain things that's gonna make the relationship better and make the child behave better and make them do better, I'll say learning to accept what the person is saying, even if you don't agree with them, is going to be your key to making life as a teen easier. Because when you're stuck arguing with a teen, they're not gonna let down in those moments where everybody's a little bit riled, where they're in their, right, when they're in their non-thinking brain. So I have something that I call accepting is not agreeing. And I think disagreeing in the wrong moment breaks down your credibility and influence. And I can obviously go into that more, but it took me a while to get to the exact line, I would say, which is I think disagreeing in the wrong moment decreases your influence and credibility.

SPEAKER_05 7:20

I think I heard one at some point that it's it's good for parents to approach conversations with a little bit of curiosity. Instead of instead of prejudgment, instead of thinking in your head, well, well, you're just being rebellious because you colored your hair purple, instead of thinking that and and then talking off that premise, you can always ask them, Why why did you do that? Can you explain to me what's going on with with your your hair color? And I had a teenage daughter that did that, right? And what did you say? I actually responded very well. I didn't I didn't go off on her, I didn't raise my voice. I just said, Oh, okay, well, this is the color of the week, right? And uh, because she was constantly, you know, tattoos, nose rings, tons, tongue studs, all of that stuff, you know, and and so I mean there were plenty of moments where I didn't react correctly and I did blow up. But at that, at that point, I actually just said we were my wife and I were in the kitchen cooking supper, and I saw her walk in and half her head was shaved bald, and the other half had full hair and it was purple. You know, and I just I was like, so that's the that's the color of the week, huh? She was hoping to get a rise out of me. I think that's what she was doing, was hoping that I would turn Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Like it was working, right? So there's two things happening there, I think. Your relationship in the moment is getting broken because she's doing something to wind you up, and you wind her up. And I tend to think of, you know, a relate I think of our connection as a chain of links, right? And every, you know, you rupture because you're blowing up. She wants you to, because that's for whatever reason she was doing that. So now you're working from a place where the connection's broken, which is always harder. And then number two, it's working because you've blown up and she's got your attention, which was the whole point of it. If it was, in fact, the point of it to get a rise, which you think it was. So, two, it's working. So she's gonna keep doing it, right? Because they're actually pretty smart and they're pretty logical, these kids. I'm not saying you did anything wrong. I'm just saying it's kind of the way it is, right? And uh, and it happens to all of us. I want to say to the audience members, right? It happens to everyone. So there's a couple things I would say from that come out of that little example. First of all, curiosity, I think, is correct, but I sort of take it, I don't know if it's one step further or if it's coming out at a different angle. And I'm happy to share this resource. It's just one little I didn't mention that I wrote a book. I call wrote a book called The Micro Step Method for the Overwhelmed Parent. And it's it's little tiny short three or four-page chapters that that go over each of these moments I talk about. And um, so this one's called accepting is not agreeing. And of course, you already know how important validation is, but everybody has their own perspective. And her perspective may have been that purple hair looks good on her, or it may have been that getting earrings, getting nose rings was the right thing to do. Right? Even if she was doing it to bother you. Her perspective is it would that getting a nose ring makes sense to me today. And that's a perspective. And I think when and I and I know because some parents have a really hard time doing this, even if I'm working with them. Accepting someone's perspective is very hard. Think about the world we live in. It's only getting worse. As adults, we break up with friends because they don't have the same perspective as us. Right? We're seeing that everywhere. So one often thinks that if I accept what they're saying, that means I agree with them. And particularly with children, you can accept what they say because you have a lot of opportunity to go back when they're in a better frame of mind or your connection is stronger to actually disagree if you still think that's important. So you can accept the purple hair in the moment without, once you understand that you can accept what's happening without giving up all of your, you know, parental authority, you then build that bond a little bit stronger. And then there's nothing to fight against, right? I mean, as you know, the whole power struggle is you saying that looks ridiculous, and her saying, no, it doesn't. So now you're fighting about whether or not purple hair looks ridiculous, which is really not the point of the conversation. Right. So, and so in that there's a couple things. One, step one, accept your child's perspective. When they come through the door, and that can look like a positive or a negative. When they come through the door and say, I broke up with Johnny, instead of saying, you know, it's gonna feel better in a week, say, You look really sad. Sounds like it was a tough day. Just accept their perspective. When they come home and say, My English teacher is an idiot. You don't have to agree with it forever because I don't want you just agreeing with them for the sake of it. Right. Sounds like the English teacher isn't giving you what you need. Obviously, with a teen, you gotta put that in the right language, right, which might be specific to one family or another. But if in that moment, and then with teens, bite your tongue. So you say get curious, which is one of my little micro steps, but I say accept and bite your tongue. Let them do the talking. Because in that validation, in that accepting their perspective and letting them talk, you are actually strengthening your relationship because that's what they want. They don't want to hear from you. And then separately, we can talk about what we need to do next. But like I sort of think of, you know, often when I talk about my framework, I think of it as having three layers. And my first is always I see you. Accepting does that. So I'm gonna let you respond because we haven't really talked about the exact connection between that connection with them and credibility and influence. So we can do that next if you'd like. Okay. You want me to go there now? Yeah, sure. Why not something I guess I'd love to um, you know, I didn't I'm sure you have listeners who understand on a on a huge spectrum, right, of knowing everything about the brain to knowing nothing about the brain. But one of the most important things I learned, especially when my girls were older, I have four daughters. They were born within five years, and one had serious medical conditions. So there was a lot going on. And I had some really hard times. Like, don't get me wrong, there were some dark times. There were some times I had no idea how to respond to them. And when I learned that cooperation and wanting to do the right thing, being responsible, making the right decision, those are all prefrontal cortex thinking brain capacities. And for kids, they can use that when their survival brain, which is the other part of the brain, is calm, is not worried about their relationship with you, which is critical, even though if they're telling you it's not, they can access that part of the brain, making good decisions, being responsible, being cooperative. And once they're in that part of the brain, now they're gonna start to use the modeling and the influence and the ruling that you've been setting up all of over the years. You know, we are honest. When we do something wrong, we call home. You know, whatever your particular values are in your house. But the only way to get them into that prefrontal cortex, which is really, really hard as teens, as you've heard, it's not grown yet. So it's not grown and we're handing them the keys to the car. Whereas little kids, we know it's not grown. The best way to get there is by seeing them and validating, which does not mean we don't do step two, which is keeping the boundaries, setting hard limits and holding them, because that's also safety. But if you just think of that first piece that I've said about getting into the part of the brain that wants to do the right thing, the first step is it requires connection. Accepting is not agreeing.

SPEAKER_05 15:48

Okay. Any thoughts? No, not really. I've I think I agree with all of that. We had four children, so I I have lots and lots of stories.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

I'm sure. I got plenty for you.

SPEAKER_05 16:00

Yeah, I'm sure. So when a young adult shuts down, stops responding, or goes quiet for weeks, what's the real meaning behind the silence and how should a parent interpret it without panicking or overreacting?

SPEAKER_01 19:13

So I've had that happen. Right? One of my girls was would be my middle child. It was complicated. My four were born within five years, one had medical issues, three were sort of natural athletes, more social. You know, the the one with medical issues was very social too. She just beginning of her life was harder. She was in another hospital a lot, et cetera. And so there were there were things that happened that I had never done, I so I didn't understand from my childhood.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

And I had one who's who, in her case, she was extremely, she didn't want to be vulnerable.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

So the way she coped with whatever was going on, all my mistakes as a parent, having a sister who had special needs, having an older sister who looked perfect, you know, whatever it might be, her way of coping was to not be vulnerable. Now, when someone says my kid's shutting down, really for me, as a, you know, as a coach or consultant, I want to know more so I can help understand where that's coming from. But I would be willing to say, I'll give you my example because I think oftentimes it's what it is. So in my daughter's case, the shutting down was a way to say, you don't matter. I'm not gonna let myself get hurt. So by definition, shutting down is a protective mechanism. So what that means, if you back it up a little bit, is something is happening for the child where they don't feel safe. They feel like a bear has walked in the room. But there's no bear. It's probably that your connection has been broken with them, because whether you think it or not, that is a hardwired emotional need for them, even as they're pulling away, which is why it's so tricky. So the short answer is that shutting it down and not talking is a survival mechanism for them. Because a kid going through the exact same thing who's a different child might be screaming and yelling, right? There's different ways that kids react because they're in their fight or flight. They're thinking a bear has walked in the room, even though there's no bear, has to do with your connection and them feeling safe, which is a little bit brainy, but I hope can you follow it? Does that make sense? That people can the audience follow that. So the way I dealt with it, the first time I would say it happened, I didn't deal with it well. And I'm not gonna go into that. I just I was looking for control. I was looking for a way to control that. Because I, my coping mechanism is being in control and doing everything perfectly. So for me as a parent to need control and her as a child to be thinking, well, I'm gonna shut you out because that's the only way I can get control. I need control and I don't want to be vulnerable. Those two things don't work together, right? Because the more I try to gain control, the more she's gonna shut down. So the first question was, what was happening? That is what's happening. Why it's happening requires knowing a little bit more, and I'm happy, I'm you know, I'm happy to use an example of yours, or we have a listener example. So now I'm gonna give you what I did the second time. This was this was over a decision of actually where she was gonna go to college. And I made a pretty big effort to let my kids sort of manage that and pick. And in this case, I had said something through the process that made her feel as though I favored one school over the other. And this is a child who also was a child who wanted to do the right thing. You know, she's a rule follower, there were good kids at school. So it's this mix in this child of I wanted to be doing the right thing, I need my mother to love me and approve. I need to be as good as my older sister, and I'm gonna shut down when I don't know what else to do. And now my mother said something, and I feel like I have to do what she said. Even if my spoken words were, you can choose between these two. I'm happy with either. I want you to make that decision. Because they don't always hear our intention. I'm intentionally saying you can make that decision, but I let something slip and probably more than once, and I probably had other things that would reinforce what had come out of my mouth. You know, the college had maybe slight it doesn't even matter why. But she picked up on it. So then when she made the choice, she was mad at herself, probably, to be honest. And that came out, but also mad that I'd opened my mouth and she felt she had to listen to me. And so she shut down and wouldn't talk. And this time I allowed that. I set up certain things that had to happen. You had to be polite at the dinner table. You had to, you know, you couldn't, you couldn't walk into the kitchen and be mean to me and walk away. Like that was just a certain rule there was. There were a couple of rules around respect, and then the other rules of getting home on time, that those all stood. But for the rest of it, I let her have that silence and I found opportunities to do two things. And one is the repair, which I think is critical to teen. So I'll do that second. And the first thing I did was in any opportunity I had where I could just accept what she was saying, I did. So this isn't a complete shutdown, but she's pretty silent. But then every now and then when she'd say something like, Yeah, well, you know, my sister's. A jerk. And so, yeah, I can see. I can see how that really irritated you what she did. And I would let her have it rather than fighting and saying, Well, you did this. And it's not easy when you have more than one kid because if another kid sees you doing that and they think you're taking a side, like you have to, it's a lot to manage. But for that relationship, I did that over and over. And I kept showing up. I showed up for the games. I showed up in any way I could. I made the lunch. And for me, you know, I'm someone who will do things. So think about what you have in your life that you can do for that children. I'm not talking about being permissive. I'm not talking about going out and buying them five new iPhones. I'm saying what are the small things you can do? Or, you know, what's their love language? What can you do to show that you are there for them, even though they're being a complete pain in the neck? Because what is the definition of safety? I still matter to you even though I'm messing up.

SPEAKER_05 25:53

There was a couple of things I was thinking about as you were talking. The first thing I was thinking about is that I think as a parent, when I are when we get the silent treatment or we we perceive that the young adult is pulling away from us and withdrawing. I think sometimes some parents kind of look in the mirror and go, wait, what did I do wrong?

SPEAKER_04 26:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:14

You know, they bl they play the blame game. You know, they either blame the child or the young adult for being inconsiderate of my feelings or whatever. And and or we look at ourselves as failures, you know, as parents, you know. And I would like to say to the listening audience that that parenting is no small chore. It's no small feat. It's hard. And and families and relationships get messy and they're complicated. And so it's okay to screw up. It's okay to mess up. It's okay to say the wrong thing from time to time. It's okay to say I'm sorry. And you know, it's it's there's nothing wrong with being humble and vulnerable and saying, you know, the other day you came in the house and said X, Y, and Z, and I didn't handle it well. And I said things that maybe I shouldn't have said, and I want to apologize. You know, there's nothing, there's nothing wrong with being vulnerable and humble and having humility with your children. And then the other thing I was thinking about is that I wonder if the silent treatment and withdrawal happens because maybe you're a helicopter parent. You're constantly in their business, constantly floating around and micromanaging every little tiny detail of their lives. And when they become a teenager or a young adult, uh, they don't need that. They you've already taught them how to brush their teeth, when to go to bed, what not to know screen time, what kind of TV to watch, all this stuff. You spent the last 18 years teaching them all of that stuff. You don't when they're 18, 19, and 20, you don't you shouldn't have to do that anymore, right? Now they're now they're becoming young adults and they're coming into their own and they're they're they're trying to figure out who they are as a person and where they're gonna go in life. So that's kind of the things I was thinking when I heard you say that.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

And I guess I was when I when you said shut down and won't talk, I was seeing more anger in it. I was thinking about a really angry individual, and why are they angry? You're still angry if you've had a helicopter parent. Um and I I to be honest, I hadn't thought of that as shutting down. But I think, you know, as a response to that. But it absolutely could be. And that's actually, there's probably lots of reasons. One's being a helicopter parent, one's never agreeing with what they say, one's, you know, there's probably lots of things. And that's why the first thing is to take a look in the mirror, right? Because it is, it is a relationship, right? And they have real feelings. And if they're shutting down, they're shutting down because that they, well, I guess I would add, I said they're protecting themselves, which they kind of are. Even if they're doing this, they're they're looking for a way to let you know you're doing something wrong, which doesn't feel good to them. And the helicopter parent, I, if I were to take it a step deeper, would be I need some control and agency in my life. And you see that with little kids, I'm sure you know already, James, but with little kids, when they act out, that is sometimes saying, give me a little bit of control in my life. Every person, four, fourteen, forty, eighty, has free will. And so it could be a child's way of saying, will you please look at what you're doing wrong? But they can't articulate that and they're afraid to because you've been showing up at their every single game and telling them what they're doing wrong and helicoptering them for so long. So I think it's a really good point. But it but it the same thing is happening. They're trying something to get your attention or to get you to stop because something doesn't feel right. So I want to I I I think that the takeaway for the audience there is helicopters are a good thing to look at because a lot of us are. Second thing is what has happened to your connection recently? Are you feeling lousy? Because if you're feeling lousy, you might think it's because your kid's a jerk, but it's probably because you feel that disconnection and you want that connection. That's the most important thing. You want your kid to love you. Even if you don't think you do. So if you can investigate what's happened, that's worth looking at. And then I'm gonna roll that right into the second thing, which is I said, I said the repair, which James brought up. And I think it'd be worth taking a minute or two to ex, and again, that's another resource I can share with your audience if you want. We'll call that one the repair. A repair was something I was gonna bring up later in this conversation when you asked even about credibility with the kids and influence. Because taking accountability doesn't mean you're a bad parent. So let's start with what James said. You are not a bad parent. We're all doing the best. I I made some errors that are really frightening. We are all doing the best we can. They're called mistakes because we didn't do them on purpose. They're not called on purposes. Right. Right?

SPEAKER_02 31:09

We made a mistake.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

So a repair or an apology, the point of that is to take accountability for your peace in what happened. So when James said you walked in last night, I with teens, I wouldn't even say when you yelled at me last night, because I don't, you don't want to say anything that's making them defensive. But if you know that he walked in, he may have been a jerk, and you blew up and then told him, you know, he could move out and go live at his aunts because you'd had enough of him. The next day or the next week, I wouldn't do it till you feel good about it. You can go back and repair. But a repair is not, well, if you wouldn't blow up at me like that, I wouldn't have to yell. If you could just be a good kid, I wouldn't have to yell. Because we're still blaming the child for our reaction. The bottom line reality is that we're responsible for that. So what repair looks like in sort of three steps is one, just taking the moment that happened and bringing it up again. Last night when we fought, last night, you know, when we had a problem when you were brushing your teeth. I'm talking to a little kid now. You know, last night when I blew up when you came home. So you without blame, without singling out anyone, then why did you blow up? I had had a long day and my feelings were hurt when when I heard you, you know, and my feelings were hurt. And then what I do is I blow up. And then you want to add a piece to that that says, because they're still growing and learning. So you want to explain why that was hurtful to them. So then you say, you know, and so I blew up, which maybe makes you feel like I don't think you care. Or, you know, that's always a really good one. Makes you think like you make it might make you think that I think you don't care. I blew up at you about the homework, which might make you feel like I think you don't care. But I do know you care. Even if you don't think they care, you can still say that. I do know you care. So I want to apologize for yelling, and I'm working on that. And then the last piece is, and it can happen then or it can happen later. Maybe we could think of some ways to figure out what to do with the backpack so I don't yell about it every time you walk in the kitchen. And now we're into a whole new thing, which is problem solving, which we don't have time to do at all. But now you move into problem solving. So how are you gonna problem solve with a teen? But that repair piece, I have this model that I show, anyways, and it's it basically these moments, in every moment like that we have with our children, we have a great intention when we're yelling at them. We're thinking, he's gotta learn not to treat me like that. But that's not what they're hearing. They're hearing you walk in the door, you're jerk, and when you yell like that, I can't stand you. So when we repair, we reorganize how that got filed in his brain. So when I walk through the door and I said something like, not chicken again, I hate chicken, and you blew up, you say, I blew up because of my stuff. Because my feelings were hurt, because I had thought I was making a nice dinner. But I want you to know I know you care, and I know you're a good kid, and I'm working on it. So they can rewire what's happening in their head to, oh, it's okay, I made a mistake, we're still connected, and then, but I have to do better. But that sometimes comes a little bit later. So repair doesn't mean you let it all go, nor does accepting is not agreeing. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_05 34:43

Right. So you say problem solving, I think I when you say that, I think conflict resolution.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Same thing, probably.

SPEAKER_05 34:52

But no matter what you call it, it that's a skill that has to happen in relationships within the family, and it also has to happen outside of the family. So we talk about modeling good behavior, right? Yeah. So when we when we use good problem solving with our kids within our within our relationships, then that shows them how to resolve or to problem solve, you know, at recess on the playground, or or in the lunchroom, or in a lecture hall, or with their for their their future bosses, or whatever, right? It's a that's a skill that you have to use all through your life. And you have to you have to learn it and you have to get better at it, right? Yeah. It's a it's a it's a lifelong skill. So that's good. And it's hard. Yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

Let's talk about the parents' identity crisis. Oh my gosh, where did I just see something about that? I think it was an article came in today they're looking for quotes or something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:56

So many parents many parents feel like they're losing their role, their purpose, or even their identity as their kids grow up. How does that identity shift affect communications and what should parents be aware of in themselves? I'll give you a minute to unpack all of that.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

Yeah, I I mean, I I think I would start with awareness, and then just tell me what the other two were. What should they be aware in themselves? How that go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 36:22

Parents feel like they're losing their role, their purpose, or even their identity as their kids grow up. And how does that identity shift affect communication?

SPEAKER_01 36:30

So I think that I would I would put the awareness piece first. You know, I talk a lot about I talk a lot about parent traps, right? And those are traps that happen from the minute our kids are born. One of my parent traps was this need for control, right? And and luckily, I even though I did it in certain ways, I was very aware of it. And I also was just lucky that I sort of trusted my children would do well in certain things. So that enabled me to live, and I think I had four kids in five years, and one with medical issues is what somebody did to me so that I wouldn't have complete control because I couldn't. So that that's probably the answer to why I did. But and I have a couple, I'm a people pleaser, right? So understanding what you are and what you bring to the table, and I'm not even not suggesting years of therapy, right? There's tests you can do, I have one people can do, you know, to understand how what you're bringing to that relationship. Because now, I mean, already you can start as a teen, but when they go to college, you really do want to start letting them have a different relationship with you because you want a relationship for the rest of your life. And I do you know the numbers, James? It's an enormous number of broken families.

SPEAKER_05 37:46

I can imagine.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

It's it's it's it's a number that's I don't I don't know. I've looked it up before I'm gonna look it up again now after this, but it's sort of crazy how many parents and kids get to a point where it's like, okay, we'll have Thanksgiving today, but that's all I can handle. And so if you want that relationship forever, you have to look at what you're bringing to it. So the awareness is have I dedicated my whole life, you know, am I living through my child? Do I need to control what my child's doing in order to feel good about myself? Have I been living through them as a helicopter parent so that I'm gonna feel lost when they go? None of these things are bad, but it is worth recognizing it. When my child, my first child went to um California and I'm on the East Coast, you know, and I had parents say, Oh my gosh, don't you feel like you're losing her? I would never let my child do that. And I'm not saying the answer is letting them go to California if you live on the East Coast, but I do wonder if every parent should be thinking, they're moving away, they're not gonna be around as much. I need to have a different relationship. Because if you find yourself hanging on, think about a friend who's clingy, who wants to control everything. What does that feel like? So, step one is awareness. How does that affect communication? I think it depends on the child. You know, some children will just stay in that, right? There are a lot of kids who go to college and let's use the helicopter parent example, but they continue to stay in that shadow and to please their parent because they need that relationship. So in that case, it may not impact it. But I would question if that's good for the child. Right? Because we need them there's all this anxiety and depression. We need kids to know that they can fall down and get up. And if you're not doing that yet, when they become teens is a great time to start letting that happen. And if you haven't done it by the time they're going to going out of the house, you gotta start letting that happen. So it affects, I guess you're asking, how does it affect communication in two ways? One, the child will just continue to put up with it, and that's what your relationship is based on. Or you'll get bigger rebellion and you'll start to feel the pull away because they're tired of it. So I would say it can impact it in two different ways, right? And it really depends on the child and the adult. Yeah, I don't want to keep talking, but the bottom line is is the kid who's overly attached, are we giving them the skills they need to survive in this awful life? Right? I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 40:24

I think I think one of the things that we talk about a lot on the podcast with different people is the fact that that parents fail to recognize that they need to be transitioning at the same time that their children are transitioning. Our children go, you know, they're toddlers, we they're born, they're toddlers, they go through grade school, they go through middle school, they go to high school, and we can't we can't interact with a high schooler the same way they we interacted with them when they were a toddler, right? We can't interact with our young adult as if they're a junior in high school. Right? And parents parents are parents should be more of a support system and a mentor to a young adult. We we're no longer telling them how to brush their teeth, we're no longer telling them about screen time. They should know all of these things. And and that's that's why we teach them all of these things for for 18 plus years, right? And so when they become a young adult, we have to we have to give them the space to be who they're gonna be. And sometimes they're gonna do things that you've taught them to absolutely not do, but they're gonna do it anyway, right? And so at that point, you just have to go, okay, you know, let them talk about their day, validate them, whatever, whatever you need to do. But but as parents, you know, you talk about awareness. We need to be aware as parents of adult children that we need to allow them to be adults. Now, we may not we may not agree with everything that they say and do, but guess what? They they are going to become who they're going to become, and they're gonna move on in life, and they're gonna leave you in the dust. If you if you're always in their face and you're always combative and you're always judgmental, if you remain a helicopter parent even though they don't need that and don't want it, then you're gonna lose them, right? And so we have to nurture that relationship with them as a young adult just as much as we had to nurture it when they were in grade school.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

Yeah, and the the the other line that comes to mind for me for, you know, especially in college, but even I would start it, I mean, I have whenever I talk to middle school parents, I tell them this is a really good one, is when they tell you something, whether their teacher's a jerk or that they don't like Johnny ever anymore, they're gonna quit the lacrosse team, or whatever they tell you, and you say, Well, did you want me just to listen, or did you do you want me to give you some feedback? You know, do you want me to let you know what I'm thinking? And just ask that. You'd be surprised how many times they say, Yeah, I just really wanted to tell you. And then you have to kind of respect that. And if you have a someone at college, just start doing it.

unknown 43:10

Right?

SPEAKER_01 43:10

Because we want to pontificate, we want to judge, we want to opine, we want to say, yeah, that teacher stinks, he gave you a C. But they don't necessarily want that. And it just by saying that and catching yourself and then asking yourself later why you wanted to give your opinion so badly will help with your awareness. And it doesn't mean that I think more likely than not, they'll come back to you and say, okay, can can you give me your opinion? But I really think, you know, when you say transitioning in this day and age, you know, not everybody, but generally it's backing off more. And that doesn't mean no boundaries. It doesn't mean, oh, fine, you can stay out till three. No, it means natural consequences. If you don't have the car home by 11, you don't get it next weekend. And they need that. Teens need that in order for you to be credible and believable. They need you holding boundaries. I call the first one I see you. The second layer is I've got you. I can handle all the hard stuff. I can handle your moods, I can handle you being angry at me. I can hang to tell you handle you telling me you think I don't know anything about kids these days. I can handle all of that by not getting upset and by sticking to my rules. If you haven't always been good at boundaries, I just want to say I know it's hard.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

Really hard. Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

Really hard.

SPEAKER_05 44:38

Well, children, young teenagers, young adults, they need a safe space.

SPEAKER_04 44:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 44:43

That's what families is all about, right? Correct. You want them, you you want to the boundaries are like guardrails. Like they're they're in their little Ferrari wagon, right? And you say, okay, now you can only go 20 miles an hour around that curve, and if you go 50 or 60, you're liable to go through that guardrail and crash into a tree or go down into off a hill, right? And so so while we are providing them with boundaries and guardrails to keep them safe physically, you also want to have those boundaries and guardrails for children so and young adults so they can feel safe emotionally and mentally and spiritually, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Can I give it another ex another metaphor, which you've probably heard of? Because I'm not the only one who uses it. Have you ever the whole pilot one? So you're all so audience member, you're on the plane and you're with your five best friends and you're going on some vacation, and the plane gets up in the air, and you know, you're waiting for, I don't know, the drinks, the one pretzel they give you nowadays, and the plane drop does that thing where it drops 10 feet in the air, and everybody grabs onto something. Most of us, maybe not some of you, then are a little bit nervous and we're waiting for the seatbelt light to come on and the captain to say, you know, stay in your seats, you know, a little bit of turbulence ahead. We'll be fine, blah, blah, blah. Stay buckled, et cetera. Instead, this time, the pilot comes out of the cockpit and he looks around and he says, Anybody out there have any idea what just happened? Like, I'm not really sure. You know, I I'm not quite sure what to do. I could turn around, but then you're all gonna miss going on your vacation, and I know how important that is to you. I mean, I could try to land at a nearby airport. I'm gonna have to go find if there are some. I could gun it. But I'm not, you know, I'm not really sure. That's what one guy suggested. I'm not sure it works. Now, how do you feel? You're petrified.

SPEAKER_05 46:34

You don't feel very safe.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

And that that metaphor to me is because I, you know, you can tell people they need to make boundaries to keep kids safe, but it's that feeling of like, who the heck is in charge here? And the child will never, ever articulate that. They would never say, Well, I'm being a total pain in the neck because you've given there are no boundaries here, so I have a ton of anxiety. And I don't feel like anyone's got any control. So I'm taking that anxiety out on you. They don't know that, but that's what it feels like. Who is flying the plane? Good. That's a good metaphor. It's a good one, right? So when advice turns into control. When advice turns into control. That's a Yeah, uh go ahead. I think I know what you're gonna ask, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 47:18

Right. Where's the line between offering wisdom and accidentally slipping into control? And how can parents recognize when they've crossed it?

SPEAKER_01 47:27

Can you do you want to give me an example or not? Is there something that comes to mind for you? Not really. Okay. Not really. Okay. So when does advice turn into control? I think parents, I think parents naturally want to be in control. I do too. And what happens is when they're born, you are. You have to be. So your first experience at parenting is full-on control. They can't stand up and wean off of their mother, mother zebra. They can't even, they can do nothing. Right? We are the most useless mammal in the world when we're born.

SPEAKER_05 48:02

Right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

Right? So so it's normal to think you should be in control. So it's also, I'm just gonna throw in, and this is not, you know, doing this alone is hard. It's why I I went into this because I finally realized, like, yeah, I had therapists helping this or that. I needed someone saying, this is what works, this doesn't. It's hard. Get a few books, listen to podcasts, you're doing the right thing. Because it's really hard. But I think parenting wisdom advice turns into control when two things happen. One, you just want the control, which is a you problem. You want them to go to Harvard and they don't want to. And they may not want to because you're so hellbent on it that you're driving them crazy. But you want them to play lacrosse and be the best one on the team, and they actually don't care. They're happy middle of the pack. Right? So that's number one. And that's that is and I hate to say it, you can't see me, I'm grimacing, but that is a you problem, right? We have to, we have to decide they are blooming adults, and we're gonna have to give up some of that control. Now, what you might want to do is sit down, be very clear on what your values are in your house, and clear on what you expect to happen. And those things maybe, if we pay for a season of this, or if you try out for a team, you stay on that team till the end. Right? Different things around homework, and that's a bigger conversation. But you know what I mean? Certain rules. You come home for dinner, that's the rule. The car gets back at the house by 10:30, that's a rule. Then you're not on the run, you're not trying to decide where to get involved or not. There's certain things that you make very clear. Having said that, where those rules turn into control is when you don't let a consequence play out. So either a natural consequence that says, well, if you don't do your homework, you're gonna get a D. And that's hard to start junior year in high school. But if we can start younger, kids want to do well. Period. Amen. They want to do well. So when it so that's let me go back to what I'm saying about consequences. I'm not suggesting we need a consequence for everything. But when they say, I don't want to come home till 12, and you say, Yeah, I get that. All your friends are staying out to 12. The rule in our house is until you've had your license for eight months and you've consistently come home at 11, that we don't give you that responsibility. And I know you can do that. And actually, in two months, we can have a discussion about it again if you've come home on time every time for the next two months. But for now, if you come home at 1130 at 11.01, you're gonna lose the car for the next weekend. That's it. Done. No fight, right? You've agreed. Their perspective is completely normal. You've said, and the rule in our house is this. We can still talk about it, maybe, if you do a really good job over the next two months. And this is what happens if you don't. And so when they come home at 11:30, you don't say, see, told you you couldn't do it, told you you shouldn't have the keys. I told you we should have never given him the car keys. He's awful. You have no, you can never be responsible. No. You say, look, we all make mistakes. That's a tough rule to follow. It's really hard to leave a party when there's other people there. But I know you can do it. And that is a way not to let your advice, your advice is, I want you to get home on time. Right? Or your rule is so the first piece was more about like letting them make decisions. The second piece is letting them make mistakes, right? Without making it about you having control. Does that make sense? Or have I missed it? Is there if I missed it or is that what you have? Oh, that's fine. No, that's fun. So, and those, those consequences and natural consequences, if you've never done them, are hard because they'll be new. So it's really hard. Start young. Advice. But you these are teen parents. But you can always start, you can always reset, you can always repair, you can always work on problem solving. Always. Start with the repair. If I because we're getting close, I don't know. Can I make one just different comment right now?

SPEAKER_05 52:18

We can take it, we can take as much time as we need to. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 52:21

Well, let me just make this one because it just is really what I want to say. Because if if teens come to me, this is usually where we are. You know, with teens, I personally believe with younger kids, you need a parent coach before you need a therapist, unless it's extreme, because the kid really needs you. Doesn't need a bond with someone else. Not always, but a lot of the time. As they get older, teens might need their own person to talk to, right? So it's to be aware of that. Think, do they need someone to talk to? But they still need you. So you're still a really important part. So if you're having, if you feel like you're just in a rut with your child, and I'm gonna throw out an example. You're nagging them all the time about homework. I had a client a few weeks ago, came to me, and this was the issue. She's nagging all the time, but they're not gonna get good enough grades, they're not doing their homework well enough. So, what have the grades been in the past? In this particular case, the grades had been fine. Can't remember if they were straight A's, but the grades had been fine. No one was failing out of anything. And I said, Look, the connection is breaking down. This child is saying back off, and you're not backing off. Think of it as a reset. It's sort of like an apology on steroids. You go to the child and you say, Look, I've been thinking about it. Everything, I feel like I've been nagging you. Take full responsibility, even if you're exaggerating. Feel like I've been nagging you for the past month about your dirty laundry, about your homework, about your whatever. And I know how capable you are, and I know that you can handle things. So first, I do apologize for my nagging. Because I know that makes you feel like you probably don't want to do well, or I don't think you can do well. But of course I know you can. So I'm gonna make you a deal. And then you might have a little it might need a little need a little bit of work, but in this case I said, I'm gonna make you a deal. I'm not gonna nag you about your homework all week. I am not gonna say a word because I know you can handle it. And all I ask is and then if you have an ask, I don't know, that I'm not gonna, all I ask is that you don't call me to bring something to school that you forgot because I'm not gonna I don't have time to bring it. You don't even have to have something like that. But now you're resetting, you're saying, I take responsibility, let's start afresh, and then don't nag for a week. At the end of the week, none of the homework is done, got a different problem. We gotta talk about that. A huge number of kids, if they're already doing okay, they're gonna like that you have backed off and you've honored what you said, and you said what you meant and what you said, and you that one said what you meant. But I say that to teens because I always oftentimes with a teen, I start with something like that. Like, you gotta reset.

SPEAKER_05 55:04

So, last question. The one conversation parents avoid but shouldn't, that's the topic. What's the single most important conversation parents avoid having with their teens or adult children? And what changes when they finally have it?

SPEAKER_01 55:18

I mean, it might depend on your child, right, and what they're going through. I uh by the time we get to teendom. But I mean, the thing I want to say, which I don't think is the most important conversation, is it it's hopefully been made already, but sort of I I will love you regardless. I mean if that's not already clear in the family, then as a teen to say, you know, one night when they're putting them to bed, not putting them to bed, you go in, they're already lying down, you go in and talk to them, hopefully the phone's not there, and you say, you know, I just want to do it in the dark if you're not used to having close conversations. But sort of, you know, I just want you to know that you're gonna start making a lot of decisions on your own. Who your friends are, what time you leave a party, what you do at the party, where you go to school, what job you take, who you marry. And I want you to know that regardless of what I say or comes out of my mouth, I believe in you. And I'll always be there for you. And that, I don't know if that's a con that's not a like phones aren't good for you. Don't drink and drive, but it's a it's like I'm going to make mistakes. The wrong thing is going to come out of my mouth. But I want you to know that I will always be willing to look at what happened and to reset and move forward again because I am your biggest fan.

SPEAKER_05 56:40

Right. And your your young adults need to know that. They need to know that that you're their biggest fan, that you're there to support them. I always told my kids, I said, So I don't ever lie to me about anything. I said, there's nothing you can't tell me that's going to change the fact that I love you. Now, there may be some natural consequences, you know, like if you come home and say, hey, I killed the math teacher, he's buried in the back of the school by the FFA building or whatever. That's an extreme example. And you can still love them through that, and you can still talk to them and say, Well, why did you kill the math teacher? Was that really a good response? You must have been very angry. The flashing blue lights outside of the house tells me that the police know about it now. And and we promise we'll come visit you in jail as much as we can. That's an extreme example.

SPEAKER_01 57:37

Totally extreme, right? But but uh but something must have happened to make you do that. Because I know deep down you're an amazing person, and I'm here for you.

SPEAKER_05 57:45

So, Mary, I really appreciate you coming on the show today. Uh, we missed like four questions, but I think we're gonna be talking for hours. We could talk for hours. I'm gonna talk about it. You do a wonderful job. Tell us about your book, The Micro Step Method for the Overwhelmed Parent and where where my listening audience can go get it.

SPEAKER_01 58:03

So that book that came about when I first decided that I was gonna go, you know, that I wanted to help parents. And I had done a lot of my own, you know, reading and research as I was figuring out what was going on in my own family and with myself, in fact, because I come from a lot of trauma. So, you know, my parenting, my parenting experience wasn't perfect. And I started writing things I called micros I called micro step minutes. And then one day someone said, Why don't you turn those into a book? And all they are is really taking small moments of a blow-up for some reason and explaining the brain science behind it in a really simple way, and then giving some scripts of what comes out of our mouth and why that sometimes doesn't work and what could come out instead. And for each of them, I connect it to how that actually improves your connection and improves the child's resilience over time. So, in all of them, we're trying to make them behave better, improve our connection, and hopefully they'll be more resilient and they'll thrive in the world and not have any mental health issues, because that's what we're seeing a lot of. So that's what it is. It's a compilation of that. And then at the beginning of each chapter, I have five chapters with different things, you know, curiosity, letting them struggle, boundaries, connection, and safety. And then I I piece them together with anecdotes of my own. So you learn a little bit about me. And you can find that on Amazon or on my website, which is very easy, Mary Wilcox Smith.com or Mary SmithParentcoach.com.

SPEAKER_05 59:29

Wonderful. So what's one practical step parents can take today to improve communications?

SPEAKER_01 59:38

Yeah, well, I'm going to get my acceptance practical, like practical step. I would say, okay, we're talking teens, right?

SPEAKER_05 59:46

Teens are young adults.

SPEAKER_01 59:48

Okay, you know what I would say? Bite your tongue. I was gonna go back to my accepting as green.

SPEAKER_02 59:53

I wouldn't when they're talking, anything bite your tongue. I used to with my kids, like put a timer on my watch for a minute. People will keep talking. And if you don't, if if there's a moment of silence and it's too much, parrot back what they said. Just repeat what they said.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

But I would say that in the simplest form, because I can go into all kinds of active listening and this and that. In the simplest form, bite your tongue when you're listening and say out loud in your head what they're saying instead of thinking about what you're gonna say. People notice. That's good. How many dinner parties do I go to where people are like, oh, I met Mary, she's great. And I'm like, yeah, they don't know nothing about me. All that they did was talk because I'd ask questions. They're like, she's amazing. It's like, yeah, I just didn't talk, and I'm a big talker. I and I exaggerate, but you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:49

Sure. Yeah. So, Mary, thank you for being on the uh episode tonight or this evening. I appreciate you. And uh, I know that our listening audience will are gonna get a lot out of that. So, to the listening audience, I want to say thank you for the privilege of your time. That wraps up our conversation with Mary Smith. Today we dug into the real work of communicating with teens and young adults, understanding their silence, recognizing our own blind spots, repairing conflict in a healthy way, and learning to speak each other's emotional language. I think we need to have another episode where we can talk a little bit more about some of these other questions emotional language, love language, and all of that good stuff. Yeah, that's a great one too. You're right. So if something in this episode challenged you or encouraged you, don't let it stop here. Keep growing, keep connecting, and keep showing up for your kids in ways that build trust and relationship. Everybody have a good night, and we'll see you on the next episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:47

Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:48

Thank you, Mary.