Dealing with Parenting Frustration: You Don't Have to Be Perfect with Dr Kutz

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Let me just tell any parent that's listening that you are doing a hard job. And thank you for trying to do a hard job. And we know that you are learning as you're going, as we already talked about. It's okay to learn as you go. And I James, I believe this with all my heart. You have to let yourself off the hook that you have or are in some way messing up your kids. Listen, we all do things that we regret doing. We've all said things, we've all disciplined for things that maybe was a little overreaction and stuff like that. We have all done that. Those little mistakes aren't the reason that your child you perceive or they're told or whatever colloquialism you want to use are messed up and all that. We have to let ourselves off the hook for that. We need as much grace for ourselves as we do for them. You're doing the best that you can do. I think that's important. And I appreciate that. We recognize that. And I would just encourage you to keep trying, keep trying to improve and keep trying to get better.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

There comes a moment in every parent's life when the role they've known for years begins to change. The children they once carried, guided, and protected become adults. And suddenly the questions become different. How do you stay connected without holding on too tightly? How do you continue loving well when relationships become complicated? And while every family is different, no parent should have to navigate these questions alone. Each week, James Moppet brings together experts and parents who have walked this road before to explore the realities of parenting adult children. Through honest conversation and practical wisdom, listeners find hope for the journey ahead. Whether your relationship is thriving, strained, or somewhere in between, there is hope, there is healing, and there is always the possibility of a stronger connection. ABC's of Parenting Adult Children. Helping parents navigate loving their adult sons and daughters well.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Hello and welcome to ABC's A Parenting Adult Children podcast. My name is James Moffat, and I'll be your host. Today I'm joined by Dr. Matt Cutz, author, leadership expert, and cancer survivor. We're talking about resilience, emotional connection, family relationships, and what life's hardest moments can teach us about parenting adult children. Matt, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_02 2:42

I'm doing fantastic, James.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Thanks. Well, thanks for being on the show. Do me a favor and introduce yourself to the listening audience.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

Sure. So again, Matt Coots. I am uh hail from Greater Toledo, Ohio area. I have two adult sons, uh, two wonderful daughter-in-laws, three almost perfect grandchildren. And uh and my day job is I'm a university professor. I teach in a doctoral program in Florida International University, and uh been doing the academic thing for 30 plus years. My research and professional interests very much align with leadership development, crisis decision making, making decisions during turbulent times, etc. So it's kind of a little bit on my background.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Awesome. My wife's a special ed teacher, so y'all you'll kind of have that in that that teaching, that teaching thing, yep. Yeah. So, Matt, when you received your cancer diagnosis, how did it immediately change the way you viewed family and relationships? Wow.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

So, you know, I've been very blessed to have been able to have a very good family dynamic before it all went down. And and I can tell you this, and my wife and I have talked about this many, many times, is my first response, and and and I mean, after you get over the initial shock, so I'll say, you know, that that's the initial response. But at the very you know, top three things I was thinking of is I can't let this diagnosis distract my, and I have sons, so it would apply to obviously children in general, male or female, but I have two boys. So my thought was I cannot let this diagnosis distract my sons from pursuing their dreams and and destiny with the with their careers, with their families, with their lives. And that was a huge, huge thing for me right away. And I I gotta be honest with you, my wife didn't necessarily appreciate that because she was like, no, I need them here with me to support me. And the last thing I wanted was for them to drop out of school, pull back on some of their career options and things like that. Because I I really wanted them to know that I'm gonna be all right. Your mom and I are gonna be fine. You continue to pursue the things that you want to pursue, and under no circumstances should you feel like you have to quit whatever it is you're doing or hold off on whatever it is you're doing, or et cetera, to come home per se and take care of me or worry about me. So it immediately affected our family dynamics outside of what you normally might think. I don't know if that's the answer a lot of people are expecting when I'm asked that question about the family dynamic piece, but I definitely wanted my sons to continue building the life that they saw themselves building. And I didn't want my diagnosis to detract from that in any way.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Do you mind if I ask you to to tell us a little bit about how it how it went down and how it, you know, did you have did you have symptoms or you were you at a regular doctor's visit? Sure.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Yeah, so for me, I have one of those strange, strange situations where I had no symptoms of any kind. So my diagnosis is advanced metastatic prostate cancer, which means it's it's equivalent to they don't rate uh prostate cancer like they do other cancers as far as stage one, three, four, et cetera. It goes by a gliesen score. My gleason score was eight, which is pretty advanced, so it would be equivalent to a stage four. And then they say that because they had already found the beginning of some of that prostate cancer in my lymph nodes and in my pelvis. So it had already begun to spread before I even knew anything about it. So the story goes, I was actually, like I said, no symptoms of any kind, traveling, very active. I was, in fact, I was training for a triathlon. And I was out on a bike ride, and you know, and my and I have one of those tri-bikes with the handle bull handle horn, handlebars, and you know, the aerodynamic helmet and all that stuff. And I was out there just tooling away on a on a straightaway. And long story short, I end up crashing the bike. And and when I crashed the bike, of course, I I wrecked the bike, broke my hand, dislocated some ribs, had a concussion, some contusions, things like that. So went through all that process, was healing from that, continued to train, and I was starting to have chest pains, very severe chest pains, in fact, uh, at nighttime, feeling the squeezing, you know, all the stuff that they tell men of a certain age to be alert to and to watch out for. So I was having those signs. So I called my family physician, explained to him what was going on. Of course, he was very sympathetic, but he kind of reminded me, he goes, you know, I know that you're active and healthy and you never had any heart issues before. I'm wondering if what you're feeling is just a consequence of the rib injuries that you sustained a few months ago from that bike crash. And I immediately was like, yes, that's what it is. Never mind, so to speak. But, you know, being a conscientious and good physician, he was like, Well, we can't just never mind this. You know, you did call and complain of chest pain, it's like that. So now I have an ethical obligation, you know, to search this out, so which I appreciated. And so uh so I went in for a you know, a routine. I don't know if it was routine, I did the whole d digs, you know. I got the mask on, got the EKGs, all the 12 leads on running on the treadmill, and you know, they did a whole big assessment, and of course the heart turned out just fine. So there was no trouble there. He it was it really was the rib injury, but it was at that moment when he happened to be looking through my file, and it's actually his nurse was looking through my file, and she noted that, you know, you never came in for your 50-year-old well check.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

You know, you know, do the stuff that men just hate talking about, you know, the colonoscopy, all the stuff, yeah, prostate exam, you know, everything, everything a man loves. So so we scheduled all that stuff. And again, I didn't think twice about it because I was active and healthy and had no symptoms and traveling all over the world. In fact, I had a big, a big extended trip to Australia coming up in a in a month or two. And so, at any rate, long story short, everything worked out great on that physical, except my PSA was elevated. And so when they called me, they didn't seem to have any urgency in their voice, but they were like, Yeah, uh, your PSA was a little high. Here's a referral for you or I'll just please follow up. So I waited several weeks actually, but eventually, at the urging of my wife, followed up with that call and was explaining to the doctor what was going on, all this kind of stuff. So we were scheduling an appointment. They were had new patients, we're six months out. So I was like, okay, not a problem. That actually works well for me. And I know a lot of people would be put off by that, but I was like, no, that works great because I've got a big trip to Australia coming up. And then we get back, it's my wife and I's 30th wedding anniversary. We had a trip to Mexico planned, and so yeah, six months is great. And uh, so we scheduled it. And then as we were hanging up, I mean, her literal last question to me was, Oh, by the way, I need to make a note. What was your PSA's uh number? And I said, 54.2. And uh she's like, hold on one second, and and uh left, put me on hold, went and talked to the doctor, I presume, and came back a couple minutes later and said, Can you come in later this afternoon? You know, the doctor wants to see you right away. And so that's when it all began, and I began to realize that you know, right there this was something more significant than I had ever uh realized it could be. So we've got the diagnosis, we started the biopsies, we scheduled the radical prostatectomy, did all that, did radiation, started uh what's called androgen deprivation therapy or ADT right away. And and so that really changed our life for quite a while. In fact, it's been three years now. I'm still doing therapy, and uh my last my my I actually stopped the androgen deprivation therapy on July 15th, which is only a few weeks from now, or from this recording date. So, you know, I'm really excited about that. So hopefully I'll be done soon, but it's been three years.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

That's awesome. Well, I mean, what you went through is not necessarily awesome, but I'm glad that.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

Yeah, I know I know what they caught it. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

As soon as I said that, my lizard brain went, what? You weren't supposed to say that.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

No worries. No, I totally know what you mean. I totally know what you mean.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

What did that season teach you about what truly matters between parents and adult children?

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Yeah, time. I mean, seriously, and I hope that's not too cliche of an answer, but it really, it really helped me recognize the significance and importance of time. I mean, when you get a diagnosis like that, and in my case, it's uh I had a very advanced case. Um, it's something I'll be dealing with for the rest of my life. Hopefully, we can get it managed and under control and all those things, which we seem to be doing. But you know, you can't, you can't get a diagnosis like that or anything similar to that, and not begin to think of your own mortality. And for me, that was no different. Begin to think of my mortality, what would it be like not being around for my son's uh careers and their development, uh, the grandchildren's graduations, things like that. It really put in perspective the importance of time with them and just creating and building memories and and even just hanging out and doing nothing. And and I know that even in my own journey with my own parents, you know, you you do tend to, you know, as you're building your own family and things, you know, you you're you're building your family, you're building your career. And parents, while they're always there, become something different than they were when you were living at home, for sure. And in our case, that was the same. It played out the same, which is why I was so adamant early on of listen, I'm not gonna let this diagnosis affect, or at least I don't want my diagnosis to affect how my boys are building their families, building their careers, pursuing, you know, the dreams that are in their hearts, etc. I didn't want to uh be a distraction from that. But at the same time, I also very much felt the importance of time and and it's specifically, uh not just my mortality in time, but specifically spending time with them. And I'll tell you what else it did, James, is you know, my both my boys will tell you that I I was always, you know, a dad who, you know, made sure my boys knew that I was proud of them, kind of a thing. But in my own mind, I felt woefully inadequate in being the kind of father that I thought young men needed. And I begin to think that, you know, I tried really hard. My wife tried really hard for us to be the kind of parents that young men, teenagers need. But then I begin to re think about, well, what kind of parents do adult men need? I mean, both my sons are married, they have their own children. So, you know, that that takes a completely different flavor. And I remember thinking about how significant my father was to me early in my career. And and one of the things that came to my mind a lot, James, was the fact that I was asking myself the question, was I being the type of father that adult sons need? And and I don't know that I could have answered that, or I, or that I could still answer that now, but it is certainly something that became a forefront on my mind. And I hope if you were to ask my boys, they would tell you that I was there for them when they needed, not offering, you know, one of the things, excuse me, my wife and I say all the time to each other is unsolicited advice is criticism. And so we make that mental note. So hopefully I'm not offering them unsolicited advice, but hopefully I am there for them when they need it. And I think that manifests in time. And so what I love about that is while I try to spend as much time as I can with them, um, it's not necessarily only spending time doing something. You know what I mean? I want to schedule time with them just to hang out, whether we're have a project we're working on or golfing or or a family picnic or whatever it might be. I don't always want to have to have a reason for them to be around, and I don't want them to feel like they always have to have a reason to come over and hang out, so to speak, or to pick up and call. So that became something that definitely grew in in the forefront of my mind.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Well, you you bring up a very interesting and important topic about fathers and families. And I I know several podcasters that have uh I like there's the one called uh The Fatherhood Challenge with uh Jonathan Guerrero and Mark Osborne and the uh the Valiant Forge podcast where he talks about Christian men leveling up and taking their their Christianity and their faith seriously and to be the best husband and and man and father that they can be in their families. And we know there's a there's an epidemic in America where there's a lot of of young men, teenagers, boys, uh young adults that didn't have a father in the home.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

And that leads to so many problems. And it leads to addictions, it leads to to gang membership, jail, prison, all of that. And so it's very, very critical that that men are not only physically uh present in the home, but they're emotionally and spiritually in tune with uh the leadership in their home and what's going on with the kids or the or the teenagers or the young men.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

Uh and so, yeah, that's a very, very, very much needed in in the homes today. And I appreciate you bringing that up.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Yeah, that's something that my wife and I have been very uh intentional on. It is is being that role in the home. And and I obviously I'm speaking about raising boys because that's that's my experience. Obviously, it's important with women as well, raising girls, but we were very intentional to make sure that our sons had a model that they could aspire to. Not that I did everything perfect, because I certainly didn't. I don't think any self-respecting father would say that they did, but right, but we tried, you know, and that was intentional on our part.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Well, I'm doing a video series as a side from parenting adult children podcasts. I'm doing a video series called uh Kids of the 70s.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

So so uh I was raised in the 70s, and I I uh well, I had an interesting childhood, let's just say that. And uh it affected me in a negative way, in a lot of ways, and I had to learn how to reparent myself and I had to learn how to be a better father. Uh when I became when we I've been married 36 years to my wife Katie, uh, but I was married before that one time for like two and a half years, it was just a huge disaster. But I had a I had a uh son named Jeremy from that relationship, and when I started having children, I realized that I needed to be a better father than what I had when I was you know raised up. And uh I my sister and I were adopted from an an orphanage in Germany, and and anyway, so I just realized, you know, my kids needed a better father, needed a father that was present emotionally, spiritually. They didn't need a rage a holic, they didn't need somebody that was heavy-handed with them, you know. And uh no, I wasn't perfect, you know, you you parent the way you were parented.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

And uh and so you you have to recognize the generational curse, and you have to recognize that you you need to do that inner work to fix some of the damage that was done. And it takes years sometimes. It doesn't happen overnight, you know, it takes it takes a lot of time, a lot of time, sweat, blood, tears, prayer, all of that.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

You know, yeah, and when your kids are younger, they don't they don't realize the journey that you're on yourself. And right if we don't do the work to re to repair that as they get older, they might never realize that. And and I think that's important because it's only as they become adults themselves that they realize the work that you've been going through. And in fact, I was talking with my my oldest son about that just not too long ago, and and we were having a you know a nice conversation. He's like, Yeah, dad, I I guess I never realized how hard, now that he's a father, you know, I guess I never realized, you know, how meaningful and significant this job actually is, your words actually are, et cetera. And and you know, when they're teenagers, they don't give you the grace to learn as you're going, you know, but that's really what we're doing. We're learning as we go. And and I think, you know, if I were to give advice to any parent at any age or at any level, it's you need to make it clear to your kids to learn that you're learning as you go, as you're going. And I told, I told my son that, and he reminded me of a situation where I apologized to him for a decision that I had made that I realized later on was you know an inappropriate decision and how far that went with him. And that he remembered that moment, and I didn't even really remember it, but he remembered it, and uh, and that's what we need to do. You know, it's like we need to first recognize as dads, as parents, that we are learning on the job, and that not only that, but we're learning each child differently because one of the, I believe, the cardinal sins that parents make in raising any age child is treating all your children the same and having the same set of rules and all those things for your different children, because you know, as well as I do, they're completely different, they respond differently, absolutely, internalize things differently and all those things. So as you're learning as you're going, you're actually learning how to be a dad to this person and how to be a dad to that person. And oh, by the way, I'm learning how to be a husband to this person, and all of that stuff is something that you're you're learning as you go, and and that needs to be acknowledged, not just by them and the and the in terms of forgiveness and grace, but by yourself in terms of forgiveness and grace as well. And and I think that's really, really important lesson for any parent at any stage.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Well I'm sure that I don't know what the demographics are for the podcast. Uh it's it's it's focused is for adult children between the ages of 18 and 30. And so I know there's probably going to be quite a few moms out there listening to this podcast. And I want to think that there's probably some dads that might be listening to it as well. And so I want to speak to the fathers out there that that maybe they're like me. Maybe they were a child of the 70s and they had a screwed up childhood and got abused and physically and emotionally and psychologically and all of that and they they want to be they want to be a better father but maybe I'll I'll just be honest I I kind of blew it you know in a lot of ways. And uh as much as it was within me to be vulnerable and to be uh humble and be transparent to my children, my teenagers, there were many times I sat down with them and said, hey, you know I between the ages of eighteen and twenty six, I was a dumpster fire.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

You know? It's only by the grace of God, my faith in God, it's only by the grace of God that I'm even sitting here talking. Right? Because had it not been for Jesus in my heart, uh and my accepting him as my Lord and Savior when I was around seventeen, wow, I could have gone a whole different direction. You know, I could have been one of those kids that wound up, you know, in a car wreck, uh alcoholic, drug addict who knows, I might even wound up breaking the law and, you know, being uh in prison, you know, it there's just so many directions that my life could have taken. But but thanksfully God saved me and he showed me grace and mercy and love that I needed as a young man and he he taught me that my lamp my name was written in the Lamb's book of life and that he had a purpose for my life. And I'm not trying to get all preachy here but I'm I'm just saying that I have to give God credit for putting me on a new path and for in forgiving me and giving me mercy and grace and he helped to he took that what does the Bible say he takes that stony heart out of you and he puts a heart of flesh right and he gives you through the power of the Holy Spirit he gives you the the capacity to to recognize all those things in your life and and you recognize not necessarily every day or by the minute but you you have epiphanies and you have moments where you go oh wow God is changing me on the inside and he's giving me a a new heart and a new direction and and so I tried to I tried to be vulnerable and I tried to be transparent with my kids and say hey this is what I did when I was young. Right. And one of the things that my father taught me at a young age even though he was a horrible father one of the things he taught me was was that you need to think about what you're gonna do before you do it.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

And that's what I tried to convey to my children. Yeah absolutely yeah you need to think about what you're gonna do before you do it because there's consequences and a lot of times as a lot of times as parents especially with young young boys and girls and you know teenage kids sometimes we can buffer them from some of those consequences. Right. Right?

SPEAKER_02 28:32

You know let's let's be clear you know one of the you know I I want to follow up on that line of of conversation you just had you know where we can't do what we need to do and and now I believe this as a personal conviction of my own no matter how good of a parent you are no matter what your philosophy of parenting is it will never be as good as it can be if it's done without the word of God in your life. And and that's absolutely essential so for any listeners who who might not know what that is or understand what that is there is there is a way to parent that's outlined by living a life submitted to the word of God and the Spirit of God that absolutely has to be in place. And I believe as it as it appears you believe that when we do that God does grant us grace for those mistakes we do make those things that happen along the way because there will be things and there are things you know that happen along the way no matter where you fall on any spectrum but we can rest assured that if we align our principles, our ideas and our objectives our goals with what we believe the Lord is telling us to do as fathers in our home through his word then then I you're going to do the best job that you can do and that's critical.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

Yeah I think you can absolutely do a a better job with God on your side and in you versus being a secular parent that doesn't have that type of faith. And I know that there are people listening to the to this that they may you know their their God may be Buddha or Muhammad or what other gods that are out there that people can worship. And I absolutely don't stand in in judgment over that. You know any faith is better than no faith I think at this point. So I just want fathers to know that no matter no matter where you're at in this journey there's always there's always room to do better. There's always room to to learn there's always room to to um just be real with your kids. Be real with them admit when you make mistakes apologize when you make mistakes it's like you said your son you know you didn't even really remember the incident but he remembered it and it and it went a long way with him and it bought him a lot of a lot of kudos with your kid.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

Yeah yeah it's one of the things that you know we talk about in in my home is the relentless pursuit of improvement. Now that falls to every aspect of life but the most important things we do are as men is our fatherhood our fathering and our and our roles as husbands in particular so you know we're spiritual leaders we're guides we're mentors now as children and when our when our children are younger that looks different than what it does when you're older for sure where I I became you know as my children progressed through their their growth I went through at least three stages the first stage being director you know I I directed their activities I directed what they thought I directed where they went I was very prescriptive and and directed but as they got older I transitioned from being a director to a facilitator where I would facilitate things for them but gave them some responsibility and then finally as they moved out and became started their own families et cetera now my role has shifted again to that of a mentor and you go through those roles as a father director facilitator mentor and I don't think a lot of dads know how to do that because and it's not it's not because they don't transition well it's I think personally it's just because I really did well at this particular role and parents typically don't grow and change with their children as they grow and change. You know I I I was really successful as a director parent, you know, because everything was under my control totally you're going to do this you're not going to do that you know et cetera and I just set it up that way and there were consequences for their actions etc and that's when we taught that principle and all of those things but eventually they matured and as they matured I needed to transition my intervention style and I know a lot of dads that don't transition their intervention style because they're stuck with what worked for them. And that kind of violates that principle that I just said that we need to be in the relentless pursuit of improvement that doesn't only mean my career my job my professional skills it also means my parenting skills my my skills as a husband because listen those things don't come natural I always get a kick out of out of dads and husbands that talk about well you know it's just what it is. It's like no those things don't come natural so submitting yourself laying down your life being a servant for these people does not come natural. They are actual skills that you need to identify and grow and develop and and that's why I think we have so much confusion especially when we get to the adult phase we want to keep one of the former methods of parenting and it just doesn't work anymore. And I have to be willing to take you know whatever happens to them happens to them because it's their decision now and now my role is strictly a mentor they can do whatever they want when they want how they want.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Yeah it's like you said earlier every child is different and girls seem to mature a little faster than boys and in my experience that's true yes. Yeah and we know that we know that the frontal lobe is not developed fully until about 25 26 years of age thereabouts and uh so so their ability to make sound decisions mature decisions is they're somewhat handicapped right so so speaking of of the transition from the parent-child relationship to that of a support person and of a mentor how how do you how would you encourage fathers to learn how to do that? At what stage would they need to start doing that? What kind of you you talk about it pretty succinctly so I want to give you an opportunity to drill down into it some.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

Yeah thank you so obviously it depends on the kid and and I and I I don't mean that as a cop out I really don't I'm not being glib there. Every child responds differently you mentioned women girls mature faster than boys and that's certainly true the evidence uh is pretty clear on that but there's also different ranges even within boys and men how how they develop at certain rates and a lot of that depends on experiences that they've had personality all kinds of things fear of failure all these kinds of things weigh in on that so first thing I need to say is we're dealing with a very complex situation where there's multiple factors at play. So when we're talking about transitioning through these roles I might I have like I said both my boys are adult men grown living out of the house have their own families and so but I I became a mentor to one of them sooner than I became a mentor to the other one even though they're both within a couple years of each other and and all that and and that's because of a a lot of factors like I mentioned but the first thing we need to be aware of is you're gonna change these roles differently for each of your children. And so so that makes it even that adds another layer of complexity to what we're talking about here. But what I look for and with my boys in particular I looked for points of frustration and what I mean by that is you can actually I believe you can actually identify where your child is at in the maturity phase by the things that they get frustrated over you know are are they you know and and so what what disappoints them what upsets them what do they lose their cool over you know we all have these moments where we lapse you know and and we might snap or something like that. What is it that triggered that? Because the more complex that thing is I believe the more mature they're becoming so if they lose their mind over something super simple, you know, a breakup for example that's that's immature. I mean breakups are going to happen and you talk to them and all that and they may have thought they were in love or or whatever, but it just destroys their life. It it shows me that they're not where they should be emotional at so I'm gonna have to be more of a director and facilitator in a case like that versus God forbid later on when they're adults versus a divorce or something like that after there's much more involved it's a different situation. You're gonna take more of a mentor role you're always going to have compassion for them in every situation you're in but what are the things that frustrate them and so I observe that in my son's lives to look to see when it was time to transition to the next thing and as I began to notice how they handled disappointment how they handled frustration how they handled letdown when those things begin when they begin to handle those things more maturely is when I began and and I would of course run it by my wife because I too like most men can be oblivious to certain things so I would fact check it with my wife but but then we would we would just okay well that's you know we we need to now maybe back up a little bit more and give the boys some more space and things like that. So that was just one of the indications of course there are chronological things you look for as you mentioned we know that around 27ish 25ish years of age the the brain begins to be more fully developed and so there's there's things uh in that space so there is some chronological things to it as well I mean from a physiological biological standpoint there's physical secondary sexual characteristics things like that we know you know to move from directive to facilitator when puberty and adolescence begins to change when when hormones begin to take place that's another big transition in the parenting role if you continue to dictate to someone who's going through puberty and through changes and and uh all those types of things and they become interested in the opposite sex and all that kind of stuff if you continue with that style that's only going to lead to frustration for everybody. And so we have those clear indications then and I believe there's something similar to the mid-20s late 20s where you know whether or not I feel they're ready becomes secondary to where they're at in life where their physical maturity is where their brain development is things like that. So it's always those two things. So I want to make sure we understand there's checks and balances here because everybody matures biologically at a different rate but they also mature physiologic or chronologically as well and we want to take both of those factors there.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

That's great. Good stuff. I like how you broke that down so I feel like we would be amiss if we didn't draw a line between the the uh father and the mother and the uh the the uh relationship between mom and dad and how important it is to raising children the correct way and in other words how do how do boys or young men learn how to respect the opposite sex right how do they how do they learn how to treat them correctly well they they learn that because they see dad and mom interacting the correct way.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

100% so can you talk a little bit about the importance of the absolutely so obviously there is a very obvious difference there but to your point the most important and the most significant way an a a son learns to treat the opposite sex is by how they see their father treating their mother andor the opposite sex. That is that is ninety percent of it. Now obviously there's other things from culture and society they're gonna pick up as well but they're going to default to what they see being done at home. And so that becomes critically critically important. So for any fathers out there listening who are concerned about that with their sons I would say then look at how you're treating your wife look at how you're treating your daughters etc other women that are in your life how are you treating them because they're only doing what they see you do. And and I know that may sound harsh that may sound like a matter of fact but but like like we said it's it's a significant part of the developmental process. So you have that now you can always instruct them this is what a gentleman does this is what chivalry is this is this is how that works. Now in my case specifically my wife and I were very specific about that we were very intentional from age eight in fact we started with a very uh specific curriculum on how to relate to women how to interact with the opposite sex and obviously it's very basic early on but you know we taught them how to protect how to honor how to serve how to lay down your life this is what a man is supposed to do. And even to the to the you know counterculture I mean the culture might disagree very heartily with what I'm talking about right now and certainly uh certain uh feminism ideologies might disagree with that as well and by the way I I'm not against feminists in any way but I am opposed to feminism as an ideology and that's important. So this might not fly with them but as arrogant as it sounds for me to say James I'm gonna say it's okay they're wrong. They're just gonna have to be wrong. And and and the evidence is overwhelming historical evidence is overwhelming and not and and as well as scholarly evidence. So it's very clear. So anyways self-respecting women want men who can lead who want men who can make decisions and who are confident yes they want to be invited in as partners and they should be and I 100% advocate any self-respecting man or husband will invite his wife into the decision making process as equals in the decision making process and that is an that's an absolute but at the end of the day there's really only one person responsible for what the outcome of that decision and that's the husband. And any husband who would throw his wife under the bus on a decision like that I believe is a weak husband. And so we we we share in the responsibility of making the decision but I singly own the consequences and outcome of whatever that decision is if it's bad. If it's good then I share that outcome with my wife if it's bad then I take it all and we taught them that from from day one and uh and and so that was and it got more and more intense and more and more specific the older they got but I think it is very important that righteous husbands righteous fathers be very intentional about how they model the behavior that they want in front of their children and sons in particular and they also are are wise in how they instruct them. And again that instruction takes different forms depending on what stage they were in. Like for example I told you I started when my boys were eight and we had a very specific specific curriculum we went through when they were eight my approach to their instruction was directive I told them this is what you're going to do go open the door for your mother or if we're walking into the store for example and I saw a woman approaching the door who was going to get there before we did I would tell my boys hurry run go open that door for that lady you know things like that. And then as they got older to their teenage years I was much less about directing them but I still expected that behavior and if they missed an opportunity on the ride home I would mention that hey do you know that you didn't open the door for that lady or or you cut her off in line at the grocery store and you know you should have let her have have way things like that and and you missed that. Just wanted to point that out you need to be consciously aware of these things. And so that's more facilitating right and then now as they're adults now I just mentor them with their relationships with their wives. So speaking of culture counterculture let's uh let's let's let's just briefly touch on this thing that we call or we hear called toxic masculinity yes it's only toxic to certain people it's actually not toxic it's actually healthy masculinity but uh I will I will leave you to ask the questions I will get myself in trouble if I just start to ramble on it.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Well I I just think that I think men and I'm not an expert on this subject matter but but while we're talking about fathers we're talking about uh male responsibility in the household and the marriage and all of that I think I think men over the years maybe over the last couple of decades Have come under attack with regards to the vision of who men are supposed to be. Both in the home, but uh out in the workplace as well.

SPEAKER_02 47:08

And and well, let me say this. Wanting to be a masculine man is not toxic. And that's very important for me to say right off the bat. Wanting to protect, wanting to provide, wanting to be the person who takes the brunt of the responsibility for something that goes awry, that is healthy masculinity and good masculinity. I will concede that there are men who do enter into a toxic form of that. And generally, a toxic man is someone who intentionally suppresses his vulnerable side, where they where they try not to show vulnerability, that's toxic. If you are trying to keep other people from seeing you as an emotional person, then or as an emotional creature, then I believe that that is a misrepresentation. If you are hyper competitive, or I'll even say uber competitive. Now, I'm a competitive guy. I played sports my whole life. I want to win. I'm trying to win at everything I do. I want to be the best at what I do. Let me tell you, that is a healthy masculine trait to want to win and to try to win. But that can become toxic when men tie their complete and total value and worth to being dominant. So I would agree that that can become toxic. But wanting to win, wanting to be the best, wanting, like I said, the relentless pursuit of improvement, that is healthy masculinity. And then I think there's a third piece to men that can become toxic, and that's when men become entitled and hostile. You know, they they they use aggression to control. And I believe that is that's manipulation, and I believe that that's that's wrong for a man to do, and even could be abusive. That said, wanting to control the situation, if it's if that you leave it there, is a healthy thing. That's a good masculine trait to want to be in control of the situation, to know what's going on, to know where we're headed, to understand the options. Those are things that I don't want to say normal, but those are the things that healthy women look for in men. But again, a good a good trait gone awry can be now I I use that that that aspect of healthy control to manipulate and to become hostile, then that's toxic. And we need to we need to be aware of that. But but generally speaking, I think you're right. I think the normal side of those things is being exploited by our culture today and calling all aspects of masculinity toxic, and that is just uh flat out an abuse on men, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_01 50:21

Agree wholeheartedly. So, what are some practical ways families can reconnect after emotional distance or unresolved conflict?

SPEAKER_02 50:31

Yeah, so that's a that's a great, great question. I'll go back to what I said at the beginning, and and I mean this, and again, I hope it's not too glib or cliche, but I mean time. Time is really the way to do that. I think we get ourselves in trouble when we ask questions like that, which is a great question. I'm not saying the question, but we ask questions like that and then think there's a formula. There's not a formula. Every family is different, every member of the family is different. And as you've experienced emotional distance, some sort of trauma, things like that, and and you know, everybody to a certain extent or another has gone through certain things. But I think the healthy way to work through that is not look for a a timeline, a formula, you know, that's this method to fix this thing. I think the answer lies in time. And by that I specifically mean time spent together. You know, if you truly want healing, now both parties or all parties need to want healing. So you begin there. There are times when after emotional distance or a trauma, one party, usually, usually the offended party, doesn't want to heal yet. They just want to ignore it, they just want it to go away. They're not ready, they're in the denial phase, so they're really not ready to heal that yet. So I will say we need to get on the same page that everybody wants to heal from that. Now, that may require a professional counselor or pastoral care or something like that to get to that space. But once you're at the space where everybody agrees we need to get better here, then I think it's time that that does that. And you have to be open-ended with how much time that might take.

SPEAKER_01 52:27

Great. That's good. So I always like to give my guests a few minutes at the very end to like a like an elevator speech or a what kind of message of hope would you give parents that are listening to the podcast?

SPEAKER_02 52:39

Yeah, thank you for that. So one is I want you to know that we know it's hard work. You know, I don't think parents are told that enough. It's like we know this is hard work and we know this is important and significant work. So let me just tell any parent that's listening, you are doing a hard job. And thank you for trying to do a hard job. And we know that you are learning as you're going, as we already talked about. It's okay to learn as you go. And if I and I, James, I believe this with all my heart. You have to let yourself off the hook that you have or are in some way messing up your kids. Listen, we all do things that we regret doing. We've all said things, we've all disciplined for things that maybe was a little overreaction, stuff like that. Listen, we have all done that. But uh but that those little mistakes aren't the reason that your child, you perceive, or they're told, or whatever colloquialism you want to use are are messed up and all that. We have to let ourselves off the hook for that. We need as much grace for ourselves as we do for them. You're doing the best that you can do. I think that's important, and I appreciate that. We recognize that, and I would just encourage you to keep trying, keep trying to improve and keep trying to get better. And then in concert with that, have conversations with your kids, whatever is age appropriate, but have conversations with your kids about the type of people they want to be, about the type of, if we're talking about sons and fathers here, about the type of men they want to be. I I did that often with my boys and would ask them, when you grow up, I don't, I'm not asking what do you want to do when you grow up for a job or something like that. I said, what type of man do you want to be? And I and I lead them that way so that they can begin to think about what they need to do now. And I'll give you one example. When my boys were young, you know, they they were involved in sports and things like that, like a lot of kids are, and and so they were they would leave our house and go out into the community. Now, both my boys were they were homeschooled, so they were little on the on the on the outside. Being on the outside, though, they had a tremendously strong work ethic, and they both end up being like as homeschool students, and this is phenomenal, like the captain of their sports teams, all the way up through senior years and high school and all that, and uh, which is which is different for a homeschool kid to be in the public school system playing sports and being the team captain, so to speak. So I told them one of the things that's that is going to happen, and listen, I I'm I made a big deal out of it. Listen, you are going to get the opportunity to have sex before marriage, to have drugs before marriage, have alcohol before marriage, to get into pornography, all these things. I promise you, these opportunities will come up for you in the locker room, at the party, you know, after the after party after prom, the after party after, you know, the the state final football game, whatever it might be. This is these are opportunities you're going to have. I promise you they will be there. You need to decide right now what you're going to do when that opportunity happens so that you're not surprised. I said the reason why good kids fall into those things is because they're taken by surprise when the opportunity presents itself. So I'm telling you it's gonna happen, and I'm telling you you need to decide now when it happens, so that when it does, you're you're prepared for it. And James, both my boys came back to me, of course, different dates, different seasons, all that of life and all that, and said, Dad, you are exactly right. You're not gonna believe what happened tonight. They told me the story and said, and I was able to walk away without any shame or guilt or condemnation because my decision was already made. And uh, and so I carried that into developing them to be men, and I would ask them, what type of man do you want to be? And then when they responded to me about that, then I told them if this is the type of man you want to be, then this is what you need to do now to be that man when the time comes. And so that's what I think is missing in a lot of fathering today, and and I think that's one message I would love to leave with your listeners.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Amen. I appreciate that. That's excellent advice for sure. So I know you you I didn't say this, but you're Dr. Matt Coots. So how how would people how do people get a hold of you or what resources do you have online?

SPEAKER_02 57:33

Yeah, thank you. So the best place to reach me is at my website with us Matthew Cootz.com. Matthew is spelled with two T's, and Coots is spelled K-U-T-Z. So Matthew Cootz.com. And on that are all my books, I've written like eight or nine different books. Uh, most of my books are, I have some textbooks. I do, I'm an academic professor, as I mentioned, but write on leadership-related topics. My most recent book is a book that's called that I is titled Becoming Epic. And that just came out about six months ago. Becoming Epic is about overcoming the scourge of mediocrity, and uh, which is a big frustration for me, and it very much apropos to what we're talking about today. We want men in society and cultures that are not succumb that do not succumb to mediocrity. I believe that the epic framework, which stands for be excellent, be perceptive, be inspired, and be compassionate, those four maxims are the maxims to transcend mediocrity and be epic. So that's what the book's about. You can get that on my website. I have several other books there as well. And uh again, I appreciate it. Matthewcoots.com. I have quizzes there for you to take. I have some schools there if you're interested. I do a lot of author coaching, I do a lot of contextual intelligence leadership development. So all that's available on my website.

SPEAKER_01 58:58

Absolutely. That's wonderful. Thanks for sharing that, and that'll be in my show notes for sure. So, Dr. Coots, thank you for being on the show. I appreciate our conversation today. And to my listening audience, I want to say thank you for the privilege of your time. This was such an encouraging conversation about resilience, growth, and staying connected through life's hardest seasons. To everyone listening, thank you for being here. Please subscribe, share this episode with another parent, and remember parenting adult children is a journey of grace, growth, and connection. And we will see you next time.