Echoes of Childhood: Reclaiming Self and Family with Malisa Hepner

James Moffitt (00:01.166)
Hello and welcome to ABC's Parenting Adult Children. My name is James Moffitt and I'll be your host. Today we have a special guest speaker, Melissa Hepner. Is that how you say your name? Melissa Hepner, thank you for being here and do me a favor and introduce yourself to the listening audience.

Malisa (00:12.154)
Yes.

Malisa (00:18.939)
Hello, I'm Melissa. I am born and raised in Oklahoma. I'm a therapist here and I'm an author a public speaker and I have a podcast called emotionally unavailable

James Moffitt (00:32.878)
Emotionally unavailable, huh? That sounds interesting.

Malisa (00:34.619)
Mm-hmm. It can't be. Yeah, it's pretty interesting.

James Moffitt (00:39.278)
I'll have to check that out. You said you're an author?

Malisa (00:42.043)
I am, yeah. I published my own story. It's called Owning My Crazy. It released, oh gosh, 2020, 2021? I don't even remember now. And I released a revamped, kinda like added on a couple things to the end last year just because I wanted to release it to a wider market, but everybody buys off Amazon anyway, so I wasted my time with that, but yeah.

James Moffitt (01:07.906)
Do have a copy of the book that you can show us?

Malisa (01:10.011)
Not on me. It's been a minute since I've even done anything with that book, if I'm being 100 % honest.

James Moffitt (01:15.052)
No, no. Yeah. Yeah. That's fine. That's fine. But what's it called?

Malisa (01:19.425)
Owning my crazy, learning to overcome trauma.

James Moffitt (01:23.146)
Okay. And he can get that on Amazon. All right.

Malisa (01:26.009)
Yep, or Barnes and Noble, but Amazon, just go to Amazon. We all shop there anyway.

James Moffitt (01:31.992)
Yeah, just shoot me an email later with the ISBN number and where we can, what the name of it is and all that. And I'll put it on my website.

Malisa (01:38.959)
Okay, cool.

James Moffitt (01:41.4)
So I'll look, I'm looking at your podcast bio. says episode could explore trauma recovery and personal growth from a mental health perspective in the context of parenting and adult children. So I'm just going to say my doctor said that I would be okay. He just didn't say when.

James Moffitt (02:03.413)
I actually, I actually said that to a psychologist. I worked for Delta airlines back in 1988 and 1999, before the world was supposed to end on 2000. Right. And, I, did any user support and I got a help desk ticket from the psychologist and I, didn't even know Delta airlines had psychologists. And so she was in a cubicle. Why she, she had a, it wasn't quite a private office, but she had a large cubicles kind of private and,

Malisa (02:09.774)
huh.

James Moffitt (02:32.651)
I was looking at her computer problem, whatever it was, her laptop. And, I noticed all her degrees and stuff on the back wall. And I was like, wow, you're a psychologist. She says, yeah. I said, I had no idea Delta hired psychologists. And she said, so she went in she told me the psychology of the, colors and the, the, the airplane cabinet itself, the coloring, the lighting, the, aesthetics of the chairs, the fabric, everything to do with.

Malisa (02:56.123)
Aww.

Malisa (03:00.68)
Yeah, she like did experience design through psychology.

James Moffitt (03:05.633)
Yeah, I was pretty impressed. And I, know, speaking of Delta airlines, they have a, phenomenal training center and pilots from all across the world come over there or come to Atlanta, Georgia to train in their simulators. and they have. Yes. And they have a, they have a phenomenal safety record. Well, up until recently, apparently. but anyway, so much for Delta airlines and in aircraft, back to.

Malisa (03:15.355)
Wow.

Malisa (03:19.258)
is that their hub, Atlanta?

James Moffitt (03:35.277)
Back to, oh, I wanted to continue the story. I did that in front of her and her eyebrow raised just a little bit. She kept a straight face. She didn't really respond to me and she was like, Oh really? And so I solved her problem. never, I never got another trouble ticket from that lady ever after that incident.

Malisa (03:50.085)
don't know.

Malisa (03:56.987)
She said, you know what, James, you're okay. You're okay, honey. You just stay in there, babe.

James Moffitt (04:04.141)
is pretty fun.

All right. So talk to us. Tell us your story.

Malisa (04:12.527)
Well, I survived basically a really extensive history of childhood trauma and then spent my entire adult life trying to figure that out. And in the midst of all of that, had three children of my own. So any of kind of the shame and pain of healing was right in the midst of trying to learn how to raise kids to be not traumatized, but you know, loved whole.

connected, successful, whatever it is that we're trying to do with our kids, right? And I think that really led me to the darkest place just because that's where, being a mom was the only thing I really cared about being good at, you know? And I wanted to do it better than what my parents had done, which truly isn't hard to beat, but I mean, a lot better. I wanted to give them all the things that I...

really grew up just begging for internally knowing that you can't, you know, addict parents for those things. But I think I was so deep in my shame because I felt like I wasn't meeting up to the expectations that I had set for myself as a parent. And working through that shame has fundamentally changed my life. It's made me a very good therapist.

because what I recognize is that we all really do carry the same narratives from our childhood. So now I'm trying really hard with a 22 year old child who's gonna turn 18 this week and a 10 year old. I know that there's nothing that I can do to reverse some of the decisions I've made in parenting, but I'm just working really hard to go forward with the right tools and the right expectations.

James Moffitt (06:10.005)
Right. So you said your parents were addicts?

Malisa (06:14.123)
Mm-hmm. Yes, my dad died when I was 15 of a morphine overdose and then my mom died when I was almost 22 and pregnant with my first son.

James Moffitt (06:19.508)
no.

James Moffitt (06:25.069)
Sorry to hear that.

Malisa (06:26.661)
Thank you.

James Moffitt (06:27.949)
I know that that was very traumatic for you. You said you were 15 or you're 22. Right. And so then you were 22 when your mother passed.

Malisa (06:32.129)
Mm-hmm. I was 15 when my dad died,

Malisa (06:40.707)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (06:43.701)
Yeah, that's difficult to process.

Malisa (06:48.079)
Well, and being pregnant when my mom died was just really, I don't think I really took the time to grieve that loss because I mean, I was like throwing up for morning sickness during the end, you know? So she died of complications related to cirrhosis and hep C and it was a three week ordeal in the hospital and she was actually an incarcerated individual.

through our state prison system whenever that happens. So it was just one trauma after the other during those few weeks. And then she was gone and I was like, oh, okay, well I gotta be a mom. And first I was having some complications with the pregnancy. So I kind of just went into almost a cognitive dissonance just to get through that first trimester. And then I bought a house during that time, all kinds of stuff. And I was just a kid. I mean, I know.

We have so many expectations for 22 year olds and I thought I was grown because you my family all had kids like in their teens so I was like I'm grown I was married I had you know like I was like I did it right but you know 22 is a baby sorry.

James Moffitt (07:54.348)
Right?

James Moffitt (08:00.535)
Well, they say that while you're physically 18 years old that you're now an adult, but honestly from 18 to 26 is when the temporal lobe is actually fully developed. So from 18 to 26, you're physically adult, but mentally you're not fully developed yet. And so I remember looking back when I was in my, you know,

Malisa (08:23.898)
right?

James Moffitt (08:30.029)
20 to 30, between 20 and 30 I was a dumpster fire. It's a miracle of God that I didn't kill myself, somebody else, or wind up in prison. Literally. Just by the grace of God that I'm actually sitting here at 63 talking to you.

Malisa (08:34.959)
Weren't we all though?

Malisa (08:41.913)
Mm-hmm.

Malisa (08:48.011)
Yeah, I just remember thinking like, okay, every year I get closer to 25, the more I realize I don't know. And then after 25, I was like, your guess is as good as mine. I don't know anything.

James Moffitt (08:59.243)
Well, I'm going to surprise you and tell you that even at 63, the older you get in the more wisdom you gain, the more you realize you just didn't know shit. We. Yeah.

Malisa (09:10.651)
I believe it, I'm almost 45 and I'm like, okay, yeah, I know nothing for certain except for that I'm worthy and valuable and worthy of love and belonging no matter what. That's it, that's all I know for certain.

James Moffitt (09:21.963)
Right. Right. Well, the thing about parenting is you don't get a manual. They pat you on the head, they hand you the baby, assuming that the baby is healthy enough to leave the hospital. You know, they hand you the baby, pat you on the head, wish you luck, and then shove you out on the street. And then you're like, well, what do I do now? You know, and you go through the, you go through colic and you go through childhood diseases and sicknesses. And if you're lucky, you have parents.

Malisa (09:27.163)
Mm-hmm.

Malisa (09:40.558)
my gosh, yes.

James Moffitt (09:49.166)
still that are in your life and you can kind of depend on them as a support system or grandparents or uncles or aunts or whatever. And, and we, as parents, we parent our children like our parents parented us. That's, that is what's, that's hard baked into our psychology. And my, my sister and I were adopted in a German orphanage back when we were one and two years old, way back when in 1959, in 1961, 1962.

Malisa (10:01.827)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (10:18.493)
And they brought us to the States. My adoptive parents certainly gave us a much better life than we would have had if we stayed in that orphanage. And I'm very, very thankful for that. However, neither one of my parents, my adoptive parents, neither one of them understood what it meant to demonstrate love to their children. They mastered in the art of providing for all our physical needs, but they were emotionally

Malisa (10:39.311)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (10:48.557)
abusive, physically abusive. my dad was emotionally, unavailable, you know, and the only, the only emotion I ever got out of him was anger or rage. Right. And, and so I, I had a very interesting childhood and we were, we were told to, when we went to out in public, went to our relatives and stuff. We'd sit on the couch and we were told that they were weird to be seen, but not heard. And we were not.

Malisa (11:16.631)
Absolutely, every one of us were told that exact same thing. Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, because you're a direct extension and reflection of them. So if you do anything to bring shame to them, mm-mm.

James Moffitt (11:18.613)
We were not, we were not to speak to anybody and less spoken to, God forbid, don't you dare get up and run around.

James Moffitt (11:32.174)
Right. And so I recognize when we, my wife and I got married 34 years ago and I recognized that I think the saving grace for me was that I was a Christian, am a Christian, not was a Christian. Back then I was a Christian, I still am. And I knew that I had to break that generational curse. I could not carry forward

Malisa (11:56.25)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (11:59.33)
the rage, the anger, the abuse, physical, emotional, psychological abuse that my sister and I endured. there were times that, well, I'll just say that I started listening to this Christian psychologist named James Dobson. He was kind of my parenting guide and he was very wise. He was a Christian and he integrated a lot of his faith in his parenting.

Malisa (12:19.951)
Yeah, I remember that guy.

James Moffitt (12:29.291)
And so I tried to learn as much as I could from him. Obviously, to be honest, there were times that I reacted like my dad would have reacted when my kids, were being rebellious or up in my face, or, know, I, I caught myself on several occasions reacting in a way that was not becoming of a loving father. And, you know, I, I had to learn how to go back later on and apologize for.

my actions and my thoughts and my sayings, or my words. Right. And, so yeah, you're, and we're not alone. You and I are not the only parents that, have endured, trauma in some shape, form or fashion. Right. Because we're, we're imperfect people as parents, as individuals, you know, we're imperfect people and, we all need help, you know? And so that's what this podcast.

Malisa (13:16.174)
Right.

James Moffitt (13:27.445)
Is all about is to, to help parents learn how to break the generational curse of abuse and their childhood. You know, that's not all this podcast is about, but that's one of the many facets of this podcast. And we have a parenting support group on Facebook. We started it in 2015 when our kids were still teenagers, two of them were still teenagers. And yeah. So I started, I told my wife, said, Hey, let's start a podcast or not podcast, a Facebook support group.

Malisa (13:48.281)
Alright, that's cool.

James Moffitt (13:55.916)
And let's see if anybody else is having problems and lo and behold, we're not alone. We started out with 10 members. Now we've got 1.3 thousand members, you know? And, so I started this, podcast back in May of 2023. And I thought, I want to do the podcast, in conjunction with the support group on Facebook so that people would have, something that they can listen to, you know, while they're going around.

Malisa (14:00.782)
Right.

James Moffitt (14:23.309)
about their business during the day, whether it's taking kids to events or going to work or driving to the laundromat or whatever it is people are doing. You know, I want them to have something that they can just plug in and listen to. And so I want it to supplement what they're getting on Facebook. And the, and the podcast has really taken off. we've, hang on. I guess I got like 5,700 downloads since May of 2023. Uh, and, uh, so.

Malisa (14:34.031)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (14:51.477)
I switched a podcast host from Spotify over to activate FM because it's supposed to be the, the second best podcast host out there. it's my hope is, is that it's going to give my podcast a, a boost in exposure and visibility. Yeah. Anyway, away from me and back to you.

Malisa (15:05.975)
More visibility. Yeah.

Malisa (15:17.677)
I kind of think that like, like when you said, they don't give you a manual. I'm like, yeah, but you know, because of the way like, the silent generation and older really robbed us of a voice because compliance ruled all they just you know, like you said, to be seen and not heard. Don't bring shame to the family name.

these people didn't really have identities outside of their family. And so you were their everything, especially mothers who stayed home with their children. You were their everything in terms of how they got any sort of validation. So because we were robbed of our voice, I mean, even like the forcing of hugs with family members.

Just because that's what's supposed to be done. Like I don't I don't do that You're we we have to have consent in my family Like if you don't want to hug someone you don't have to like that's your body I really preach bodily autonomy because I was in so many different situations growing up where bad things were happening and I didn't want to make the other person feel uncomfortable because that's what I was taught was to put my Comfort to the side and make strangers or grandmas or aunts or uncles feel comfortable so

When you do that and you turn off to your own internal voice, then you question everything. Choice is hard because it feels like you could make the wrong choice and you don't know how to make choices because you haven't been guided through that. You've been guided through how to be compliant. So even if we were given a manual, I don't, think we'd all still be freaking out and not really knowing what to do with it. Like, should I trust the manual? Am I doing it the way the manual said? I mean, there's just all that internal conflict because we weren't

James Moffitt (16:53.047)
Right?

Malisa (17:08.965)
taught how to lean into intuition or confidence even. I how can you cultivate confidence in somebody that you're criticizing day in and day out over their hair or clothes or makeup or the way they solve a math problem or don't solve the math problem. All of these things rob us of our ability to cultivate self-love, self-acceptance, joy and peace in our adult lives.

James Moffitt (17:21.963)
Right.

James Moffitt (17:39.69)
remember that my my parents their their model for a good positive child was was primarily performance based and if you if you performed according to the boundaries that they set up set around you the guardrails they set around you be seen not heard don't speak unless you're spoken to make good grades don't be tardy at school

Malisa (17:52.315)
Mm-hmm.

Malisa (18:08.803)
If I say jump you

James Moffitt (18:08.907)
Don't take drugs, don't drink all these, all these dues that you're supposed to do and all the don'ts you're not supposed to do. If you, if you met those expectations and you're a good person.

Malisa (18:21.399)
Right, then you're worthy of my love and affection.

James Moffitt (18:24.661)
Right. And God forbid if you screw up and you make mistakes intentionally or not intentionally, like my mother was a non-practicing Catholic. In other words, she was raised in the Catholic church and in Austria. And I remember when my dad was in Vietnam, in Terrell, Texas, back when.

Malisa (18:34.683)
Mm.

James Moffitt (18:47.179)
Martin Luther King got killed back in that era. I remember that she went to the, she went to this, chapel that was open 24 by seven and she went in and prayed lit candles and all this kind of stuff. And we were just kids at that time. We were like seven, eight years old, whatever. And, we kind of understood what she was doing. And you know, we didn't really read anything into that. but anyway, where was I going with that? She,

Malisa (18:48.986)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (19:16.587)
My parents were, like I said, they were performance based, non non-practicing Catholic. So anyway, when I got into my teenage years, I, I, you know, I responded to their iron fist method, methodology of raising us, demonstrating zero love, all anger, you know, and abuse and all this kind of stuff. I responded by being insolent and you know,

Resisting I was what's the word I'm looking for?

Malisa (19:46.745)
All

Malisa (19:50.671)
Defiant?

James Moffitt (19:52.098)
Huh? Defiant. There you go. That's the word. I was defiant. Yeah. No, she resisted worse than I did. She was really defiant. No, she was one year older.

Malisa (19:54.587)
So you were the black sheep and your sister was the golden child. Was she younger than you or older? Really? oldest daughter, boy, they take the brunt.

James Moffitt (20:07.021)
One or, she was two years older than me. I was born in 61. She was born in 59. She was two years older than me. So my mother set me down with a big thick family or Catholic family Bible fully illustrated with all these pictures and stuff. And she says, you don't want you to read this Bible front and back. You know, she reverted back to her childhood. I guess that's what her parents made her do. It said, I want you to. So I've.

Malisa (20:12.889)
Okay.

Malisa (20:32.571)
Alright, read the Bible, it'll get ya.

James Moffitt (20:36.097)
I read the Bible in my, you know, adolescent years multiple times and I became a Christian after I turned 17, 18 years old. And so I've studied it after that, a different translation and all that. Anyway, so she sat down on a piece of paper and she drew a Y. And on that piece of paper, the left, portion of the Y was good and the right portion was bad.

And the little stick going up to the Y was the road of life. And she taught me that if you're on the road of life and you do good things, you do what you're told and you, you're a good boy, then you're going to go to heaven and you're going to get, you're going to reap the, the, you're going to reap the benefits of being a good boy and a young man. Right. But if you do bad things and you're disobedient, you don't do what you're supposed to do. Blah, blah, blah. Then you're a bad boy and a bad young man and you're to go to hell. You know, so that was my.

That was my perception of myself, my, my self worth was, the only way to get to heaven is to, to meet the, the requirements of being good. Right. Yeah. And, none of us can do that. Right. And you look at the old Testament, you know, the, Sadducees and the Pharisees and the religious leaders.

Malisa (21:35.459)
Yeah, my grandma's with that stuff too.

Malisa (21:47.803)
100 % compliance, yep.

James Moffitt (21:59.67)
of the day before Jesus, you know, in the years of Moses and all the minor and major prophets, they had the letter of law. You know, they had the old Testament law and you had to, you had to, in order to be deemed worthy of God's grace or God's love, you had to meet all of these requirements. Well, obviously we screwed up horribly because Jesus had to die on the cross and grace came into being. know, thankfully now we're not under.

the Old Testament law were under grace. So anyway, but yeah, that's kind of the mentality I was raised under.

Malisa (22:39.327)
Mm-hmm me too me too. I was primarily raised by my grandma and my parents were kind of in and out but You know I've I've grown to feel more compassion for their experiences because I imagine that there's must have been so much worse because I don't believe that any parent just decides that they're gonna continue to perpetuate those abuses or neglects and so I think

James Moffitt (23:02.933)
Right? Right.

Malisa (23:05.839)
they're doing a little better than what they got at the very least. But at the same time, I think you have to hold space for two different perspectives, which is your own and theirs. mine matters more because it happened to me. You know what I mean? And I don't, like my grandma's gone now too, but I, and I'm glad that I haven't like even attempted conversations like that with her in so many years before she died because

She the one time I tried to bring up stuff from childhood. I mean she she never showed an ounce of remorse for any of it and I can understand what that is now and forgive that because I get who she was in in those days of her life, but at the same time again, I'm allowed to own what my experiences were.

being raised by somebody that I would call a narcissist, absolutely. And then having addict parents with their own set of issues in and out of my life and doing the things that they did. But now with my kids, I think the number one help that I've had in raising them is my understanding. And this is in the last couple of years, but my own understanding of who I am and what my shame narratives are and what

my core beliefs that were programmed into me and learning to, you know, disseminate between just old messaging and programming that was created by them versus my own intuition and the self-trust that I've learned to cultivate because I can think of so many times in parenting decisions and like my middle child was born to be a middle child and behaves very much like a middle child. And so for me, like,

just constantly questioning, I doing the right thing? Am I not doing the right thing? All because I hadn't learned to cultivate self trust versus now where I'm so solid in who I am and know very well who I am that that gives me the ability to relate to others on that same level because I don't think we're all that different. Our wounds may have been may have been created differently, but I think once you like scrape away some mud and dirt, you can see we're all kind of the same like really. And that's my hope is that for future generations, that's what

Malisa (25:24.781)
you and I and others like us are changing for them is that we can be emotionally available to ourselves and others that we can cultivate the most self-trust and love within ourselves because then you aren't relying on these children to provide you some sense of validation for the work that you've done to raise them. My big saying is these babies didn't ask to be born. We did that. We put them on this earth. But I think the struggle with

James Moffitt (25:29.079)
Right.

James Moffitt (25:49.633)
Right. Right.

Malisa (25:55.447)
like parenting adult children is now where does my responsibility stop? And I think I have found for like my kids that I had to work through that thing that really immature parents bestow upon us, which is like, I do this for you, you do this for me. And I just learned like that was the crux of so many issues. Like the things you do to parents.

can't be in expectation of reciprocation. That child, it's a power imbalance. They're never gonna be able to repay you and you shouldn't ask them to. Now, if it's a monetary exchange and you say, well sure, I don't mind giving you some gas money, but I'm gonna need you to do this, this and this. That's an expectation set immediately. But what I find is all these parents that are overextended and...

pretty emotionally unavailable to themselves. They don't know what they need. They don't know how to ask for what they need. So they look to this child and they say, I'm gonna love you in the way that I wish I could be loved. And then I'm gonna build this contract in my mind that says, I'm gonna do that and then you're gonna reciprocate. And then what? And that was the thing that I grew up with so much is like I was supposed to be in this eternal debt of gratitude. And I just don't think that that's the case. Like I, again, I didn't ask to be born. And so like I'm here.

Should I treat you with love, kindness, and respect? Sure, sure I should. But otherwise, I don't owe you anything. So then now, back to the parenting side of that, what do I owe you? Because I did choose to have you, I put you on the earth. I think that was where I really struggled was do I owe you? Like as much as I was told I owed? You know, like since I'm the parent. And that's been probably the messiest part to work through is.

You can still hold boundaries with your children, whether they're adults or a five-year-old. If you don't have the capacity to meet a need right then, you just be honest about that. Don't try to meet the need. It's just like any relationship, you have to hold some boundaries and you have to make sure that you have the time, energy, or resources to meet the need. And if you continue to give from a place that's completely dry or empty, that's when the resentment...

Malisa (28:09.837)
and the tension starts to build up. So then you're expecting, expecting, expecting. These kids don't have the capacity to meet your needs. You know what I mean?

James Moffitt (28:17.269)
Right. Right. Well, there's, two things that you're talking about. One is one is emotional intelligence and our, our baby boomer parents. well, I'm a baby boomer. don't know what generation they were. they were the war to, generation, I guess. Yeah. The silent generation. They, they, they, they, they didn't have any emotional intelligence, very little speak of.

Malisa (28:25.018)
Mm-hmm.

Malisa (28:35.045)
They were silent generation. Yeah, very abusive generation.

Malisa (28:45.369)
None.

James Moffitt (28:47.081)
And so when you don't have, when you're, when you're not in, when you're not in contact with who you are and who you are as a person, then it's very difficult for you to help somebody else, your child, much or, whatever else. And then, and then when you're talking about

Malisa (28:59.449)
Right.

James Moffitt (29:06.343)
dynamics of the relationship of the parent going, okay, well I'm going to do this, that, and another for you. And I expect for you to reciprocate and provide my emotional needs. Acceptance, love, whatever. And it's like you said, the child is not equipped to even understand any of that, right? And so there's unreasonable expectations going on from the parent. And so

Malisa (29:18.307)
Mm-hmm.

Malisa (29:27.096)
Right.

Malisa (29:31.514)
Mm-hmm.

Malisa (29:35.395)
I just remember like, cause my grandma was born in 1940 and I was born in 1980. So she was a pretty young grandma and I was not her first grandchild. And I just remember this nonstop rhetoric of my lack of ability to complete the task that she has asked me to complete in the manner in which she asked for it to be completed was obviously me communicating to her that I do not love or value her.

or appreciate her. Like everything that we did was so personalized to her. And part of me understands that because as humans, like when you start to really dig down to who you are, you realize, yeah, okay, I create my own reality and this is my world and everybody else is just living with it. You know, like, and we're just all like living in our own world and kind of colliding with one another. But I certainly was not trying to communicate to her that I did not love value or respect her because I didn't know how to vacuum the way she wanted me to.

You know what I mean? And that was like everything. Everything we did was either communicating love, respect and value or the opposite of that. Period. There was no in between. You either did the things that were pleasing and they meant that. When meanwhile, I'm just trying to like stop the lecturing and screaming and the other, you know, like I'm just, I'll do whatever you say. I'm sorry I couldn't do that correctly.

James Moffitt (30:34.155)
Right. Right.

James Moffitt (30:59.863)
Yeah, you're as a child, you're being as compliant as possible because you don't want a beating. You don't want another tongue lashing. You don't want any abuse. And so you're like, Jesus, just give me a second. Let me, let me see if I can figure this out. Right. So.

Malisa (31:04.502)
Right. huh.

Malisa (31:11.493)
Right well because it was so hyper critical all the time

James Moffitt (31:15.413)
Right. So, so try to, if you can try to look back at when you were transitioning from, you know, when you're like 18 to 26 and you're transitioning from a childhood and adolescent into, into being an adult. And I know you had a lot on your plate back then, but you know, for the parents of, of adult children that are transitioning themselves, can you

from the perspective of somebody that experienced trauma from parents that were addicts and you transitioning and having a baby on the way, kind of describe what that was like.

Malisa (32:02.939)
Well, I would say probably overall, I just didn't have a faith in myself at all. that I could, you know, with the first kid, actually, I was a little overly confident, but from like, I had my second one at 27 and the time in between there,

Well, again, I realized how little I actually knew about life because I thought that surviving childhood trauma meant I like was so resilient that I could just go and do and be and that it was all just going to happen naturally. And I just remember feeling really unsure of who I was and how to move in the world. And I didn't know how to advocate for myself in any way. I didn't know what my needs were or how to ask for them.

And so I think if there had been any ability to communicate, A, I'm coming to terms with some of the things that happen and I need to discuss those and that been open to happen, that would have been really good. But also I think just, I was still very much being criticized by my grandma at that age. And you're going to mess up as a mom, as a daughter or whatever, like whatever your role is, it's your,

Destined to be imperfect at that role and so much of what we learn comes through these relationships and so I think if I had had Anybody in my life that was not being critical of me because everyone in my life was emotionally unavailable So, know even in-laws and whatever they think they're well-meaning, but it's still a criticism It's still this narrative like you're not enough, but you're also too much. You know what I mean, and I just always felt

this neglect wound wide open of like, okay, I got the weight of the world on my shoulders to carry all by myself. so like I have my 22 year old, he actually moved out right after high school and had a two week attempt at college and decided now wasn't the right time. And I was like, hey, I did the exact same thing at his age. So I was like,

Malisa (34:18.295)
not going to tell him the things that were said to me at that age. So I was just like, yeah, dude, it's just not your time. Let your brain develop a little more. Let you make some decisions on your own for a little while. No big, no big. And then this past summer, he moved back home. He asked if he could because he wanted to go back to school. And he knew that he is a person who cannot go work full time and handle the stress of paying bills and all of that and do school full time.

And so was like, of course, come home. Like that, I never asked you to move out. Like, you know, like, yeah, I'm glad you've had this experience, blah, dah, dah. So he's home and it has been a very interesting dynamic to parent a 22 year old because it's very little advice or any of that and more just an acceptance of who he is. But also it's really highlighted some of my wounding because I...

had to like let go of this level of responsibility. Like I'm not responsible for making sure you have dinner when you're a 22 year old. Like I still have a 10 year old. I have to make her dinner. I don't have to make you dinner. You know what I mean? Like things like that. But also just making sure that I'm coming from a place of what I tell everybody is every decision that you make needs to come from a place of love and compassion for yourself first. So you have to love yourself enough to set boundaries. You have to love and accept yourself enough to

James Moffitt (35:22.071)
Right. Sure.

Malisa (35:39.831)
know when you need rest or when you need to stand up and advocate for yourself or someone else, you know, and it's been, think that was probably single-handedly the most eye-opening was like acceptance of who he is as a person. I read this thing, I think just yesterday that said, you are not like the creator of the masterpiece that, is your child. Like they are the creator of their own masterpiece and you're just there to witness it and you know,

I'm sure I'm not saying that correctly at all, but I was like, that's so true because I don't look at him and think you're the reason or I'm the reason. I just go, you're a human having a real human experience and anything I do, as long as I make sure I'm not using a critical voice or leaning into my own fears or my own shame, I think that's been the real big key for us.

James Moffitt (36:34.765)
Good.

I'm ask some of these questions, I guess.

Malisa (36:42.255)
Okay.

James Moffitt (36:46.817)
What strategies would you recommend for parents supporting a traumatized adult child?

Malisa (36:53.819)
heal yourself first always go find this book it's called the finding peace workbook by a guy named Troy love who's an LCSW in I think Arizona and deal with your own stuff because if you understand your own stuff and it doesn't matter like again sometimes we look at foster children or just super traumatized children in general adopted maybe we're a teacher and we we see these you know kids with poor home lives

whatever it is, we do a lot to separate ourselves from them and put ourselves in us versus them kind of mentality, even if it's not in a negative sense, it's just like a, can't relate to you because kind of thing. And the more you know yourself, the more you will realize we're all having the same experience here. The human experience is not that different from person to person. So if you know yourself really well, you're going to know exactly how to meet somebody where they are.

but you can only meet people at your current level of healing. And we all have healing to do, specifically if you were raised in certain generations. Like it sounds like you said you're a baby boomer, is that right? Yeah, so most of your generation didn't get it right. Like that's what my parents were and they were raised by the abuse of people. And so it's good for like people like us to go, okay, yeah, I can say.

Like that wasn't good and I can own some mistakes and whatever. think the biggest difference is that's what we do, right? We go, hey, I messed up and we can make repair because no one ever asked us to be perfect. We do that because that's what our parents told us to be is perfect. But otherwise your kids, they don't need perfection. They need love, support, nurturing and apologies and change. like, you know, those three steps to apologizing is like, you say the apology, you explain kind of

James Moffitt (38:31.681)
Right. Right.

Malisa (38:47.095)
why you think it went that way and then what you're gonna do differently in the future to not repeat that mistake. That's where we're getting it right. But I think that if you know yourself really well and you uncover all of your wounding and all of your shame, you know how to meet anybody where they are at any time, whether it's your traumatized child or a youth group or whatever it is. You know what I mean?

James Moffitt (39:12.717)
Sure. Well, I think transparency is very important. I, I, when my kids were growing up and as they became teenagers and transitions were transitioning into adulthood, I tried to be transparent. And I tried to say, you know, I told them I was, you know, when I was your age, I was a dumpster fire. And, I had to find that. And I said, this is what I mean by being a dumpster fire, you know, and all the things that

Malisa (39:36.048)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (39:38.24)
I was dealing with internally and how I was reacting to the world and stimulus coming at me from all angles and all of that. So yeah, it's, it's a part of breaking the generational curse is to, to be transparent and to be real and authentic and, and own your own your garbage, you know, and, and apologize for it.

Malisa (39:58.959)
Yeah, absolutely.

James Moffitt (40:05.399)
How can parents maintain their mental health while navigating their child's adversity? We're talking about self-care there, I'm sure.

Malisa (40:14.435)
Yeah, I mean, again, I think just living a very present life, mindful life, where you've learned how to not intellectualize all of your experiences, but you know how to actually experience a feeling so that you can process things because listen, your kids break your heart more than anyone on this earth. They do for lots of reasons. And, you know, whether it's because they made fun of your outfit or hair or worse, you have to learn how to process those events and

I think again, putting your needs as the priority because you can't meet anybody else's needs if you're not taking care of yourself. But I think for me, presence and mindfulness because I've had to learn to cultivate an attitude of gratitude for this moment and not worry about yesterday or tomorrow, but just live in this moment and understand I can be so grateful because all of my needs are met in this moment.

And worrying about tomorrow doesn't serve any of us and I think that's where we get so much wrong as parents and God knows there's so many reasons for us to literally be so afraid but if you lean into that fear it will trigger all of your shame and You will parent from a place That is very ugly instead of a place of love and acceptance of your child unconditionally and our fear and our shame

drives our behavior in a way that is so self-sabotaging. So if you think about the things that you do to children from that place, that's when you're hypercritical because you just want this baby to have a good life and have a better life than you and all you want your sacrifices to be worth it or whatever. But again, if you're not understanding that this child has autonomy and they were never yours to create into anything to begin with,

that that wasn't really the purpose of having kids. And like if you're still sitting around thinking that if you take care of your kids in childhood, they're gonna take care of you in your old age, like you're missing the mark, honey. You're missing the mark. So, you know, really examine what your intentions are with the things that you're doing.

James Moffitt (42:32.983)
Can you discuss the role of spirituality and astrology in your personal growth journey?

Malisa (42:40.443)
Spirituality and astrology for me...

I astrology I feel direction from and spirituality I think just makes me feel really connected to myself and a purpose if that makes sense a higher purpose and like to be really honest like I was raised in a Christian home and was very Christian and have deconstructed from that faith and there was like a middle ground where

I didn't really know how to navigate without any sort of belief system. And then when I really got tapped into me and then a belief that there is something higher than myself, I just don't feel a need to put any labels on it. It does give you steadier ground, if that makes sense, where you feel a little sturdier when you feel.

a divinity in the things that are happening around you. And so I think for me, that's what's really helped.

James Moffitt (43:53.165)
All right, so I'm going to give you like five minutes so you can do an elevator speech. You ever done one of those?

Malisa (43:58.573)
I haven't.

James Moffitt (44:00.11)
Okay. So just imagine you're on an elevator and you're going to a job interview and the boss steps into the elevator and goes, okay, I'm heading from one meeting to the next. You've got five minutes to sell yourself. So think, think of it as that. And let's just say you're on the elevator with, some parents. So what in five minutes, what would you tell the listening audience?

Malisa (44:23.447)
I would absolutely say go figure your stuff out. Go and heal yourself. If you have not done therapy or any sort of personal development, you're missing the mark 100 % of the time. I promise you go fix yourself. Like learn your wounds, learn your shame, learn the things that motivate your behavior. And then when you can meet yourself and come back to your own body instead of living in your brain overthinking.

all of the time you can be present and you can love from a place that is so much more abundant than attempting to love from a place of scarcity and fear and shame.

James Moffitt (45:03.671)
Well, you did that in a minute and a half. That was pretty good.

Malisa (45:05.903)
Look at me. Hair flip.

James Moffitt (45:10.381)
Well, good job and, Melissa, I appreciate you being on the podcast and, To my listening audience, I'm going to say thank you for the privilege of your time. You can listen to this podcast on activate FM. I changed from Spotify over to activate FM, Amazon music, I heart radio, Apple podcasts and public radio. I'm also going to upload the video.

version of this podcast episode to rumble, R-U-M-B-L-E. It's the, it's a conservative alternative to YouTube. All right. So, our website is located at parentingadultchildren.org. That's parentingadultchildren.org. When you go to the website, you'll see my contact information. You can click on my email link and you can email me. there's a voicemail. You can click on the voicemail. There's a little icon that has a microphone.

Like this one, and you can click on it and you can leave me a voicemail and I'll respond to you. Uh, you'll see an upcoming show schedule, uh, all the, all the different episodes that get released each month. And there's also a place to leave a review at the very top. There's a review button that you can click on. And if you listen to any podcast episodes and you like them or you have suggestions or you want their topics that are not being discussed that you would like discussed.

leave a review like on Apple podcast. If you listen to a podcast episode, you can actually leave a review right there on the Apple podcast. And I get those. release a new episode every Friday morning at 8 AM. Thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. And again, Melissa, thank you for the privilege, privilege of your time and for spending time with me today and sharing your story.

Malisa (46:57.839)
Thank you. Thank you for having me.