Breaking Cycles of Trauma and Incarceration with Richard O'Keefe

James Moffitt (00:01.474)
Hello and welcome to ABC's of Parenting Adult Children podcast. My name is James Moffitt and I'll be your host today. Today we have a special guest, Richard O'Keefe. Is that how you say it? it O'Keefe? Okay. Hey Richard, thank you for being here. How are you doing?

Richard O'Keef (00:14.076)
Yes.

Richard O'Keef (00:18.728)
We're doing very well. Thank you. Thank you for having me on.

James Moffitt (00:21.794)
Yes, sir. do me a favor and, introduce yourself to the listening audience.

Richard O'Keef (00:27.528)
Sure. I have six children, 23 grandchildren, and three great grandchildren. When I was a young parent, I didn't have a dad from which I can model being a good parent. And so I didn't know what to do. So when my kids misbehaved, when they refused to cooperate, when they fought, when they lied, when they argued,

I was overwhelmed and stressed out. There came a time in my life when I felt that I had to make a serious change or else not only me, but my kids would be in big trouble. And so I started to read a lot of books. And the first thing I found out, the first thing I learned was how many books there were. They seemed endless. And I had to ask myself, if all these books teach the same thing, then why so many?

And if they all teach something different, how many of these books am I going to have to read before I learn all the necessary dad skills that I needed? Well, as I went from one book to another, I started to realize that they all had something in common. They all taught that children have emotional needs that need to be met. And when we meet these emotional needs, good things happen. Relationships with our children grow stronger. Cooperation improves.

Parents build strong families where their children learn and practice good values. And parents increase the odds that their children will make good choices even when parents are not around. So I also learned this. If we as parents do not meet these four emotional needs, that's when struggling happens. That's when children's behavior becomes worse. And that's when people feel overwhelmed and stressed out.

That's where I was. So this was like a revelation to me. I want you to know that the most important four emotional needs are these. All children have a need to feel a sense of belonging, a sense of personal power, to be heard and understood and boundaries. And I also discovered there are 15 required parenting skills to meet these emotional needs. Would you like me to list them or should we? OK.

James Moffitt (02:47.148)
Wow. Yes. At no, absolutely. Go ahead.

Richard O'Keef (02:51.663)
Here they are. To meet the sense of belonging, the skills to do that are spend one-on-one time with your children. That is like the foundation to all the skills. Number two, spend family time together. Number three, get to know your children on a deeper level. And number four, make positive deposits. In order that we meet our children's need for

personal power, there's three skills that we can use. Give choices. In other words, do want the red towel or the blue towel? You want to sit up to the table or at the counter. The next one is to teach life skills. That's huge because what kids didn't know yesterday, they know today. And that's huge when we are meeting their need for a sense of personal power. And the third thing, skill number seven, is to set goals with our children and to help them achieve those goals.

Then we come to the need to be heard and understood. And there's just one skill that we use to do that, and that's to acknowledge negative feelings. When children come to us and their feelings are hurt and they're in distress and we brush them off, it causes them to have to bottle up those negative feelings, to suppress them. And after a whole...

young lifetime of suppressing negative feelings, it's got to come out in their behavior and oftentimes it does. And that's when children get into a lot of trouble. And then the fourth emotion in these courses, boundaries. So we give attention to good behavior. Skill number 10, we make requests effectively. Skill number 11, we teach values. then skill number 12, we create rules. 13, we enforce those rules.

14, we use consequences wisely, and 15, we problem solve together. So what I've discovered is that many parents who want to improve their child's behavior focus on their child's behavior rather than what's causing their behavior. They try to improve the behavior by using methods of control, like punishing and threatening and lecturing, spanking, screaming. They do these things because they don't know a better way.

Richard O'Keef (05:10.305)
and because they work. But they only work for a short time because what's driving the behavior is still driving the behavior. When you meet the four emotional needs, behavior improves naturally and automatically because you're focusing on what's causing that misbehavior.

James Moffitt (05:13.998)
and

James Moffitt (05:28.27)
Well, you just unpacked a lot of stuff there. That's good stuff. so I'm to read something from your, your profile. It says, it you specialize in breaking cycles of trauma and incarceration through effective parenting methods. The episode could focus on strategies for cultivating healthy relationships and emotional intelligence and families, offering insights into handling complex family dynamics.

through the transition to adulthood. Now, and there's a lot in, there's a lot in that paragraph and I don't, you know, you don't have to talk about all of that, but does that bring up anything that you would like to share?

Richard O'Keef (06:11.271)
Well, I work for a Utah State University in the capacity of what's called a fatherhood educator. I teach dads how to be good dads. All my students are incarcerated men. So I teach in the county jails and in the state prison. And all these guys that come to my class are, I shouldn't say all, but almost all of them have had young lives full of trauma and abuse.

And what I try to do is break the cycle of that trauma by showing them how to be good dads. Talking about the four emotional needs and the skills used to meet those four emotional needs. And hopefully when they get out, when they can be with their families, when they can be with their children again, they'll know how to be better dads regardless of how they were raised.

James Moffitt (07:03.372)
Right. And that's good. I'm, I'm glad you're there to provide that education for them. And I don't know about you, but, I was raised in the seventies, sixties, seventies and eighties. And, you know, I, back then parents were like, just do as I do or do as I say, but don't do as I do, you know, they, they would, tell you to, they would set boundaries.

Richard O'Keef (07:16.721)
Mm-hmm.

Richard O'Keef (07:24.796)
Yeah.

James Moffitt (07:30.742)
or guard rails with you and you basically are like, don't do this. Do do that. You know, if you do, if you do the right thing, you'll get praised. If you do the wrong thing, then you're going to get a butt kicking, you know, or whatever. yeah. A woman. Yeah. Yeah. And there's nothing more frightening than the sound of the leather leaving your father's pants. Right.

Richard O'Keef (07:36.123)
Mm-hmm.

Richard O'Keef (07:41.071)
Yeah, you'll get punished. My students call it a whooping.

Richard O'Keef (07:52.965)
That's right. That belt coming off.

James Moffitt (07:56.174)
Oh my God. Yeah. Time to run for the Hills. But anyway, um, yeah. So during, during this, we have a parent support group on Facebook. We have like, we started out with 10 people like in 2015 and now we're up to 1.3 thousand members, lots and lots of parents out there struggling, looking for help, looking for support, looking for hope. And,

Richard O'Keef (08:13.893)
Wow.

James Moffitt (08:24.28)
parents in this day and age, sometimes there's blended families. Sometimes there's moms and dads, you know, your traditional family nucleus would be the father and the mother, the mom and the dad and, the dad and the mom both plays important, but separate roles. Right. And I like, I like having fellows like you on the podcast, because there's, there's, there seems to be a lot more support for mothers.

Richard O'Keef (08:36.578)
huh.

Richard O'Keef (08:43.575)
Yeah, yeah.

James Moffitt (08:53.794)
And there's, there's not a whole lot of support for dads, you know, and when we have kids, we don't get them, we don't get an instruction manual and they're all different, you know? And, I know, I know when we, we had, raised four children and, they're all grown and gone and,

Richard O'Keef (08:57.767)
and then.

Richard O'Keef (09:02.919)
All right.

James Moffitt (09:12.352)
Each one of them was unique. Each one of them had their own intelligence, their own intellect, their own educational levels, and they were all different. So it's not one size fits all. and, emotional intelligence and being aware of what's going on inside you as a parent is so very important to know and to develop because.

Richard O'Keef (09:24.421)
That's very true, yeah.

James Moffitt (09:41.998)
I mean, we, we are supposed to model the correct behavior to our children, right? And, and yeah. And if we shoot for that and when sometimes we do good, sometimes we fail and sometimes we have to circle back around and go, you know, I didn't respond very well to you the other day. And I kind of yelled at you and said things I shouldn't have said, and I'm sorry. And, know, and, and so that's, that's also an important part of communicating, you know, with your loved ones and with your family and.

Richard O'Keef (09:47.651)
That's the idea, yeah. That's what we shoot for.

Richard O'Keef (10:08.965)
It is.

James Moffitt (10:11.618)
You know, we know as men, you, if you yell at your wife and then ask them what the problem is, you know, why are you so upset? You know, that doesn't go over, it goes over like a lead balloon. Right. So, anyway, talk about, talk to the listening audience about what it means to be a dad and, and all of that.

Richard O'Keef (10:22.171)
Yeah.

Richard O'Keef (10:35.889)
Yeah. Well, all children need both parents. I think statistics have bared that out. As a dad, we do things that moms, as as as they may try, they just don't seem to be as effective. For instance, dads, they roughhouse with the kids. And studies have shown that roughhousing

improves their emotional health. And my kids, I've got five girls and one boy. We used to wrestle all the time on the bed. We'd have pillow fights. We'd wrestle on the floor. And they just loved it. Dad does things like he's in charge of the barbecue. And the children know that when the barbecue is working and dad's out there grilling something, hamburgers and hot dogs, that's kind of

James Moffitt (11:33.101)
Right?

Richard O'Keef (11:34.674)
his thing. Now, you mentioned something very important. There's a lot of single moms out there. And to their credit, they do the very best job they can. because my dad left our family, and so I was raised by a single mom. And my sister and I, turned out pretty good. I believe that our mom did the very best that she could, and she was wonderful.

But yeah, there is a difference between moms and dads, and I agree with you when you say that kids need both moms and dads.

James Moffitt (12:12.002)
Right.

Well, let's talk about self care for dads. Let's talk about, about emotional intelligence and, and figuring out how to, because

You know, the men of the seventies and eighties, certainly the seventies and eighties, sixties and beyond. we weren't known for, or they were not, were not, no, our parents were not known for emotional intelligence. And there, there wasn't a lot of talk about boundaries and there wasn't a lot of things about, you know, you did, you didn't even talk about family issues outside of the home. Right. Our parents told us, you don't, what happens in the home stays in the home and you don't.

Richard O'Keef (12:43.611)
Yeah.

Richard O'Keef (12:54.958)
And.

James Moffitt (12:58.37)
breathe a word of it, you know, outside of the home. Right. And a lot of things were in the closet that have come out of the closet, you know, and for better or for worse. And so, and so I think that, men, in some ways, maybe a little bit emotionally crippled because of that. Like I did, my dad did, my dad didn't, did not model healthy, emotional habits in front of me. Right.

Richard O'Keef (13:05.457)
Mm-hmm.

Richard O'Keef (13:19.247)
Good day.

Richard O'Keef (13:26.875)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (13:28.674)
He was, he was the guy that came home at five o'clock and, he worked hard all day and he were to kind of stay out of his way. And, and he was, he was there. He provided for us kids, you know, physically he provided a roof over our heads. He provided us with school clothes, everything we needed physically, but he didn't really, he wasn't emotionally present, right? He was kind of checked out. He was checked out emotionally. And I think that that, that alone.

Richard O'Keef (13:51.439)
Right.

James Moffitt (13:58.584)
does a lot of damage in children.

Richard O'Keef (14:03.175)
And even though it was that way back then, I think that there's still a lot of fathers who don't know how to express themselves emotionally in a healthy way. I talked to my students about this and I asked them, how many of you were allowed to express your feelings in a very healthy way? And most of my students, and of course, you got to keep in mind that they came from traumatic backgrounds.

But most of them will say when I tried to express my feelings, I was called a sissy. And my dad would say, if you're going to cry, let me give you something to cry about. And so they grew up without having the ability even. They didn't learn how to express their emotions because, yeah, they didn't have that outlet. And so they ended up bottling up those emotions. And I tell my students that when they bottled up their emotions, it was like

James Moffitt (14:47.639)
an outlet.

Richard O'Keef (14:59.825)
having an imaginary backpack. And when they experienced something that caused them some trauma, it was like putting a brick in their imaginary backpack. And unless there is some way to expel those bricks, to let them out, then they'd have to carry those bricks around with them for the rest of their lives. And that backpack becomes very heavy and it takes effort.

every day to carry that backpack 24-7. And that heavy backpack, it affects our choices and it affects our relationships. And unless you have some outlet, some way to express those suppressed feelings, then you're going to have, you're going to be struggling for a long time.

James Moffitt (15:51.83)
Right. Well, and when you bottle up those feelings, in a large degree, you're in denial. Right. When you're shoving all that stuff down and suppressing it, you're in denial about those feelings and you're putting those bricks in your backpack because you don't know how to deal with it. You don't know how to cope with it. And you haven't been taught, unfortunately, you haven't been taught how to...

Richard O'Keef (16:13.697)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (16:20.632)
to cope with the emotion or learn how to work through it. Why am why do I feel angry? Why do I feel sad? Why do I want to hurt somebody? Why do I want to hurt myself? You know, all these things that run through our heads as young men. and so, and so, you know, let's talk about, let's talk about young men and, single, single parent homes, or, or young men who are in.

Richard O'Keef (16:34.662)
Ew.

James Moffitt (16:49.184)
a nuclear family that has a mom and dad, but, but, the mom's doing 90 % of the child raising and the dad's just off doing stupid stuff. Right. And, not being a good model for those children. And, and what are, what are some of the statistics about fatherless homes and, and you know what, you know, we, we know that, there is a huge degree of there's a, there's a good chance that.

when a young man is in a home without a father figure, without a mentor that can, they can teach him the things he needs to know. What are the chances that they're going to wind up in a life of crime? What is, where are the chances that they're going to make mistakes? One of the things my mom and dad taught me and my sister back in the seventies and eighties was think about what you're going to do before you do it. Don't just, don't just react, but think about the consequences of your, your, actions.

Richard O'Keef (17:22.608)
Mm-hmm.

Richard O'Keef (17:30.054)
Yeah.

Richard O'Keef (17:39.719)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (17:46.122)
And because there are things that you, there are actions that have consequences that could last you for the rest of your life. Like, like if you get a felony, you know, if you're arrested for whatever reason, if you get a convicted of one felony that can affect you for the rest of your life and you can have a hard time getting a job. You know, so many things in life are affected in such a negative way. And so let's, let's talk a little bit about.

that and you're obviously a subject matter expert on some of that stuff.

Richard O'Keef (18:13.893)
Sure.

Richard O'Keef (18:18.383)
I want to touch on something that you mentioned a minute ago, and that is how do these people, how do kids and teenagers cope with having to suppress all these feelings that they've grown up having to bottle up? having taught hundreds of these incarcerated dads, I've come to realize that one of the easiest ways that they cope is by starting to take drugs. And most of my students

I would say 95 % of them are drug addicts because they learned that the drugs numb their emotional pain. And once they get started on drugs, they can't stop and it just takes over their life. And so for many of them, that's how they end up incarcerated. But I also want to mention this, and that is that when children's four emotional needs are not met,

sense belonging, sense of personal power to be heard and understood in boundaries, then they look, kids look elsewhere to get these emotional needs met. And one of the things I ask my students is this, do gangs meet the four emotional needs? Heads nod. I said, when children's four emotional needs are not being met, do gangs, are they,

What's the word? Inviting. they all nod their heads. Yeah, gangs provide sense of belonging, sense of personal power to be heard and understood in boundaries. so a lot of these... Yeah, it becomes their support system. So if parents do not know about these four emotional needs, the odds are that when children get invited to become part of a gang, they'll be tempted to do something like that.

James Moffitt (19:54.594)
Yeah, they become their support system that they don't have at home. Yep.

Richard O'Keef (20:14.309)
Now, you asked another question that just I cannot remember what it was, but it was important.

James Moffitt (20:25.134)
Well, I was, I was asking you to, you know, we were talking about young men, uh, not having the emotional intelligence to understand, uh, the things that are racing through their head, you know, young men, you know, uh, and girls too, when you're, when you're a preteen, a teenager and you becoming a young adult hormones are just going rampant. Right. And so that's, that's another thing that has to be dealt with or needs, there needs to be an emotional outlet or a

Richard O'Keef (20:46.949)
Anymore?

James Moffitt (20:53.306)
the parents need to be able to harness what's going on and find a healthy way so that kids can understand how to deal with those hormones.

Richard O'Keef (21:04.249)
Yeah, yes, right. And acknowledging those negative feelings or making kids feel heard and understood is one of the best ways to do that. Spending one-on-one time with our children also is one of the best ways to do that. Asking questions to get to know our children on a deeper level is also another great way to do that.

James Moffitt (21:26.744)
We have, we have a Facebook support group I told you about. We, I read about stories of.

You'll have, you'll have situations where the kids are out of control. You know, they're 18, 19, 20, 22 years old, whatever, and they're out of control and they, they, they leave the nest and they try to make it on their own and they can't for whatever reasons they can't, which a lot of that is monetary. You know, they, so expensive to live in this world now that they, you have, you have two issues. have failure to launch where the kids don't want to leave the nest and, or the, the home life is so horrible. They can't wait.

Richard O'Keef (21:44.977)
Yeah.

Richard O'Keef (21:56.817)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (22:05.848)
to get out of the home, which was my case. But more times than not, I call them boomerang kids. I wrote a story about boomerang kids and I had an episode about it, but sometimes kids become boomerangs and they come back to the house, right? then because we as parents, we want to support our children as much as possible, as much as it's healthy, you know, to do that. We don't want to enable bad behavior, but...

None of us want our kids living in a tent city. know, none of us want our kids to wind up in prison or in county jail or lockup. and so we have, have, I hear about tons and tons of stories where parents are trying to cope with, young adults that have, negative behaviors, cursing, cussing their parents, drinking.

Richard O'Keef (22:38.471)
Hmm?

Right?

Richard O'Keef (22:59.953)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (23:04.47)
Not cleaning the rooms, not, not following the boundaries that are set for them. Right. And, so it's, just creates a lot of friction in the house and, and, parents are like, well, he's been in rehab four times, but he still keeps coming back to the house. He's still, he's still addicted to drugs, even though he's been to rehab four times. Right. And you can, you can.

Richard O'Keef (23:24.455)
See you.

Richard O'Keef (23:29.212)
Yeah.

James Moffitt (23:30.734)
We can identify whether it be drug addiction, sex addiction, food addiction, any addiction that we can put our finger on, right? Uh, that's disruptive in the life of a young adult.

Richard O'Keef (23:38.439)
Mm.

James Moffitt (23:43.566)
So it's a real struggle. It's a real struggle for parents to know how to manage that.

Richard O'Keef (23:46.704)
It can't

Richard O'Keef (23:51.996)
Yeah. One of the things I tell the people that I teach, and I teach outside of the prison as well, is that if we are going to set boundaries that our children learn and they learn about and that they live, we have to have a good relationship with them. If we have a good relationship with them, they'll be more receptive to what we teach and more responsive when we correct their behavior.

So one of the beauties of this meeting the four emotional needs is that if parents concentrate or focus on meeting the first three emotional needs, they will strengthen the relationship that they have with our children. And then setting boundaries will be so much more easily, much more easily done. So if parents focus on meeting that need for a sense of belonging, sense of personal power to be heard and understood,

boundaries will come much easier to them.

James Moffitt (24:54.434)
Right. And and I, and I think the key is, that dads need to be involved in the, the, the lives of their children. Right. You need to be, you need to be mentally and emotionally. Yeah.

Richard O'Keef (25:03.351)
Absolutely. Yep. Go to their football games. Yep. Yep. Uh-huh. Go to their plays. Just have dinner together. Have talks with them on a deeper level by asking important open-ended questions, that kind of thing.

James Moffitt (25:23.458)
Right. And we don't, we don't, well, I guess one of the things I would stress is that, and you see this sometimes, you have a helicopter parents and you have, you have parents that are trying to be the kid's friend. It's like, we're not, we're not your friend. We're your parent. I'm your father. I love you. You know, you have to communicate to them. I'm not, I'm not here to be your friend. I'm not here to make every little thing in your life, in such a way that you're going to be happy. Right.

Richard O'Keef (25:34.992)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (25:52.985)
Happy is such a fleeting emotion in the, in the reality of the world that we live in is yeah, you'll have moments of happiness, you know, but you're going to have moments where you're sad and you're all have moments where you're angry and you're have moments where you feel depressed or there's a whole range of emotions that, that we as parents have to try to manage, talk about, communicate with them and say, this, you know,

Richard O'Keef (25:55.409)
Mm-hmm.

Richard O'Keef (26:01.073)
Hmm?

James Moffitt (26:20.888)
How do you, you know, they come to you and they say, well, you know, I had a bad day at school. Well, well, tell me what was bad about it. And they'll tell you. And then you're like, well, how do you feel about that? How did it make you feel? And then they, and then he'd tell you how that makes you, you know, hopefully you have a good enough relationship with them that they'll open up and tell you how they feel and how it made them feel and all that. then, and then that, that's an open door for the parent dad, whatever, to, relate to them. And, and.

and tell them about, you know, be transparent with them and say, Hey, you know, when I was your age, this was a situation I went through and you may or may not have handled it the right way. but you just tell them, Hey, I screwed up. made a mistake. Like I told my kids when they were teenagers, when I was in my twenties, I was a dumpster fire. You know, it's only by the grace of God that I'm actually sitting here today talking to you about these things, because I could have very easily wound up in prison or dead.

Richard O'Keef (27:12.103)
Mm.

James Moffitt (27:21.442)
You know, because I made some really stupid mistakes when I was younger and, and, you know, I give, I give God, God and his grace and mercy, a lot of, a lot of,

Richard O'Keef (27:22.459)
Yeah.

James Moffitt (27:35.8)
What's the word I'm looking for? Credit. Credit. Yeah, a lot of credit for the fact that I actually lived through those events in my twenties and luckily did not make any fatal mistakes, you know.

Richard O'Keef (27:37.325)
I love credit, yeah.

Richard O'Keef (27:51.974)
Yeah. And now look, James, look what you're doing. You're doing podcasts. You're helping men. If you hadn't have gone through those experiences, you may have taken a totally different path, even though it wasn't so hard. So you're doing a lot of good things because of the experiences that you've gone through.

James Moffitt (28:03.421)
yeah, absolutely.

James Moffitt (28:11.63)
Well, and as I look back, um, you know, and I give my, my mom and dad, despite how hard they were on us kids, some of the things they did to us, you know, they'd be in prison today, but, uh, I can credit, I can credit some of the, I was able to walk through some of those situations in my young adult life, uh, because they were hard on us.

Richard O'Keef (28:24.389)
Yeah, indeed.

James Moffitt (28:40.876)
And because they taught us some hard lessons, I mean, back then I might not have understood exactly what they meant. I didn't have the life experience that they had. And they were, you know, they, they tried to communicate as well as they knew how, I guess. and, and it was only until I was in my mid twenties, late twenties, early thirties, that I could reflect back on some of those lessons and some of the hardness, some of the lessons that they taught us.

Richard O'Keef (28:41.254)
Mm-hmm.

Richard O'Keef (28:47.867)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (29:10.814)
And that actually gave me these stick to it enough stick to it enough. What's the word I want to say? Perseverance. It gave me the perseverance to make some of the hard choices that, that I needed to make to make the right choices. Right. I made plenty of wrong choices, but there were times that I have to credit them on, you know, some of their hard parenting skills, you know, they're authoritative and authoritarians and.

Richard O'Keef (29:20.871)
Uh-huh.

Richard O'Keef (29:30.033)
Mm-hmm.

Richard O'Keef (29:36.849)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (29:39.976)
And so I look back at that and give them credit where credit is due. But I also look back at when I was a young adult, I had some mentors that came into my life. I can think of two or three people that were, know, men that were, you I was in my twenties, they were in their late thirties or forties. They were married and had kids of their own. And they kind of took me under their wing and helped me.

Richard O'Keef (29:47.569)
Thank you.

Richard O'Keef (29:56.828)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (30:07.82)
helped me down the path, you know, down the road of life a little bit and gave me some good stuff, you know? And I think it's, I think it's important that, that young men not only have a good role model as a father, but, but they also, it's good for them to have mentors, whether they're, they're coaches of football team or FFA leaders or, know, whatever it is that's going on now in this world. But, it's important that they, they have access to those things.

Richard O'Keef (30:13.563)
Yeah.

Richard O'Keef (30:32.839)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Richard O'Keef (30:38.243)
And if there are fathers out there who see children in need of a dad, then those fathers can take it upon themselves to be sort of like a surrogate father, a father take those children under their wings and do things with them, take them off their mother's hands for a while, yeah.

James Moffitt (30:59.48)
Aren't there programs that aren't their programs for men that can mentor, mentor young men. I don't forget what it's called. I haven't. Yeah. Yeah. Big brothers and big sisters. I haven't, I haven't seen any of those. They used to run TV ads all the time. I haven't seen one in forever.

Richard O'Keef (31:06.651)
There are. Big Brothers Big Sisters is one of them.

Richard O'Keef (31:16.421)
Yeah, yeah, I believe they're still around.

James Moffitt (31:20.908)
And I think that for families that go to church that prescribe to a specific faith, faith, denomination, whatever, whatever it might be, a lot of churches have pastoral care. A lot of churches have men that are associate pastors that lead Sunday school classes. they go, like our church, I know they take the youth on a lot of different

youth trips and stuff like that. so the young, the men can mentor the young men and the women can mentor the young women, right? And it's another support system outside of the family that helps them to develop.

Richard O'Keef (32:00.167)
Yeah.

Richard O'Keef (32:06.671)
Yes, yes. And there's lots of opportunities out there if you just look around. There's young people who just need to have a father figure in their life.

James Moffitt (32:16.779)
Absolutely.

So you've already talked about the meeting the four emotional needs of children. Here's a good one. What strategies transform a strong-willed child's behavior? Lord knows there's plenty of those.

Richard O'Keef (32:32.185)
Okay. Yeah, that's a good one. A lot of it depends on the age of the child. So if children are young, they need to know that dad means what he says. Let me give you a quick little story here. My five-year-old granddaughter and I went for a walk.

And we went up the path and the path led between houses and through little forests. And on the way back, she decided she was just going to sit down on the path. And I could not get her to budge. So I did what any normal dad would do. I started walking home and assuming that she would get up and chase after me, which she did not do. So after a minute, I looked back and there she was still sitting on the path. But now she was turned around, facing the other direction. I thought to myself.

If this isn't defiance, I don't know what it is. So on my way back, I thought, here's what came went through my mind. I'm just going to pick her up by her arm and I'm going to say, hey, listen, you're the granddaughter. I'm the grandpa. You need to do what I say. Let's go. But I didn't. I went around to the other side of her, got down on one knee. And I said, I said Rosalyn, that's where her name was Rosalyn. I said, Rosalyn, I don't know why you're sitting here, but you'd probably sit here all day if you wanted to. But here's

James Moffitt (33:24.332)
Right, right.

Richard O'Keef (33:50.64)
the choices that you have. You can either get up and walk or I'll carry you. You decide. So she didn't make any effort to walk, so I picked her up and then she just I knew she'd do this. She just started screaming and kicking. And I thought that maybe the neighbors would call the police because they think that this guy's kidnapping this little girl. So I walked down the path, kicking and screaming, and all of a sudden she stopped.

James Moffitt (34:11.19)
my God.

Richard O'Keef (34:18.521)
And then she did something that just totally shocked me. She put her arms around my neck and nuzzled her face between my neck and my shoulder. It was one of the most loving feelings I've ever experienced. And to this day, I don't know why she did that, but I do know that she knows now, first of all, that grandpa loves her. I stayed calm. And secondly, she knows that when grandpa says something, he means it.

James Moffitt (34:40.024)
Right?

Richard O'Keef (34:48.527)
And so that's one of the ways that we can deal with a strong-willed child. Now when our children grow up to where they can solve problems, then we problem solve with them. So we may go up to them and we might say, hey, you got a second? I've noticed that you've been having a hard time getting ready for school on time. What's up with that? Tell me about it. And then we listen.

And we make them feel heard and understood by reflecting the feelings that they have. And then when they're done expressing their side of the story, we say we tell our side of the story. say, well, here's the thing. Or what concerns me is when you don't get ready for school on time, it throws all of our family off schedule. And that leads us to step number three, which is

we need to come together and come up with a solution for this problem. what do you think that we can do? What can I do and what can you do to help so that you're ready on time for school every morning? And when we problem solve with our kids like that, you see, it meets their need for a sense of belonging. It meets their need for a sense of personal power because they're involved in the problem solving process. It meets their need to be heard and understood because that's the first thing we do is try to understand where they're coming from.

James Moffitt (36:09.515)
Right? Right.

Richard O'Keef (36:16.251)
And then a meister need for boundaries because we're having this discussion because we need to set some boundaries around you getting ready for school.

James Moffitt (36:24.236)
Right. And it helps them to take, turns it from, Hey, you need to be ready for school on time to, Hey, this is a problem and you need to take ownership of it. It's your problem. It's not my problem. It's your problem. Eventually it'll become my problem. But, but initially you're the one that needs to get up on time. You know, brush your teeth, eat breakfast, put your clothes on, get your school back, gets ready, whatever.

Richard O'Keef (36:43.847)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (36:53.932)
Right. So, so we have to teach our kids and young adults how to take ownership of their problems. And there's so much, so much garbage in this world where people are like, like in denial, like, there wasn't, you know, like addicts are especially famous for that. it's not me. It's them, you know, I'm,

Richard O'Keef (37:01.041)
Yeah.

Richard O'Keef (37:12.933)
Yep, they don't take responsibility for their actions.

James Moffitt (37:15.692)
Right. And so, so that's a, that's a good thing that that's a good teachable moment where you can say, okay, this is your problem and we're going to, I'll help you, but you need to take ownership of the problem and take ownership of the solution as well. Right.

Richard O'Keef (37:30.149)
And if they take ownership of the solution, the odds that they will go ahead with that solution go way, way up. If we try to impose upon them the thing that we think they should do, they'll dig their heels in.

James Moffitt (37:36.214)
Right. Right.

James Moffitt (37:47.142)
can parent child relationships and adolescents impact adult transition?

Richard O'Keef (37:56.136)
Well, I think that we're always transitioning. As our children grow, we transition to keep up with them and the needs that they have. So yeah, I would have to say yes, absolutely.

James Moffitt (38:11.054)
Very good. And we as adults and as parents, we're transitioning as well, right? Family relationships are complicated and they're very dynamic and they're always changing and always moving. I think sometimes parents think that we're like a mountain just sitting on a hill and that we're talking down to our children and espousing all of this wisdom and knowledge and

Richard O'Keef (38:17.637)
All the time, yes.

James Moffitt (38:40.162)
boundaries and guardrails and all these things that they're supposed to do. When in fact, part of the dynamic of parenting is that we're growing as well. We're growing, we should be growing with our children as they are transitioning into adulthood. We have to transition in our minds and our hearts, our spirits, our emotions, you know, that's where emotional intelligence comes in and the ability to show grace.

Richard O'Keef (39:06.438)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (39:09.792)
And mercy, during times that it's needed, you know, there are times that, our young adults will, our children, teenagers, preteens, whatever, they'll make a mistake. And there are times that we can shield them from some consequences and we can show them some grace and we can go, okay, you know, this is what you've done despite our best efforts to keep you from doing it. And so maybe this time you're going to get a, you're going to get a pass.

Richard O'Keef (39:28.071)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (39:38.776)
But if you keep doing it, you're not always gonna get a pass, right? So I think a little bit of grace and a little bit of mercy can go a long way as well.

Richard O'Keef (39:42.235)
Yeah.

Richard O'Keef (39:49.096)
And as our children grow and change, every day they become like a new person. And as we as parents try to keep up with our kids, every day we become a new person as well. And so until the time we become grandparents and then when we're grandparents, we've got all this knowledge that we wish we could have used on our children, but now we can use it on our grandkids, you see.

James Moffitt (40:11.542)
Right. Right. That's true. How many grandkids did you say you have?

Richard O'Keef (40:16.505)
I have 23 grandkids and three great grandchildren.

James Moffitt (40:21.14)
Wow. Wow. We are populating the earth. Aren't we? What does, what does the Bible say? Go forth and prosper or something like that. Go, no, go forth and multiply. think that's what it was said.

Richard O'Keef (40:27.388)
Yeah, yeah, I'm just trying to do my part.

I guess so, yeah.

Multiply and replenish the earth.

James Moffitt (40:39.65)
That was right. and there's also a saying that says, there's a biblical principle about how a man's, quiver is full, his children are the arrows in the, in the quiver. And, so your, quiver is absolutely full and that's wonderful. last question, how can parents support adult children and addiction recovery?

Richard O'Keef (41:03.855)
Well, two words, unconditional love. That's a lot of my students when they get out, they'll go they'll go into some kind of recovery program, and a lot of them have been in recovery programs. And the best thing that they that happens to them is have supportive parents that will be there that will love them no matter what, even if that's the most important thing is to showing that unconditional love.

And parents show that unconditional love, gives their kids, no matter their age, confidence. It boosts their self-worth and it helps to give them motivation to make good decisions. What do you think about that?

James Moffitt (41:50.606)
yeah. Okay. So I'm going to give you five minutes. It's like, I'll be like an elevator speech and you're talking to moms and dads, especially dads that have adult children. What is your, what is your message to them?

Richard O'Keef (42:04.943)
Yeah. There are children right now who are going down dark paths leading to drug and alcohol addiction, unplanned teenage pregnancies, crime and incarceration, gang involvement, gun violence, domestic violence, and even suicide. And these are all tragedies happening to our young people and plaguing our society.

I believe that these tragedies don't have to happen. I believe they can be prevented or at least reduced in families where parents know what to do. And so I believe my mission is to show parents what to do. Parents, by hearing what I have to say and reading my book, they'll learn how to help their children thrive while at the same time reduce their struggling.

and enjoy the parenting journey. I've written this book called 9-1-1 What is Your Parenting Emergency? This book is different from all the other parenting books for three reasons. Number one, it talks about meeting the four emotional needs and we've gone over that quite a bit and the benefits of meeting those four emotional needs and what happens when we don't meet those four emotional needs. The second reason that this book stands out among the others is that

James Moffitt (43:08.249)
good.

Richard O'Keef (43:27.235)
It explains the necessary parenting skills to meet those four emotional needs. You see, I've done the research so parents don't have to. That will eliminate time and frustration that parents have when they have to read a lot of parenting books to get the message that they need to hear. And then the third reason this book stands out from the other books is that I have made this book easy to read and easy to understand.

I've left out the fluff, in other words, the non-essential material, to make this book short and to the point. I have tried to eliminate every excuse that a parent would have for not reading this book. The bottom line is if parents want to reduce their struggling and help put their kids on paths to success and happiness, this book is one of the best ways that they can do that.

James Moffitt (44:20.78)
And so do you, can you, where can you buy it on Amazon? Where?

Richard O'Keef (44:24.261)
Yeah, it's all the online outlets. It's just recently been published, so I don't think it's in bookstores yet, but amazon.com, certainly.

James Moffitt (44:33.239)
Okay.

James Moffitt (44:37.836)
wonderful and put it up again so people leave it up there for a minute so people can see it. 911, what is your parenting emergency? Richard O'Keefe. Reduce struggling and put your children on paths to success and happiness. Okay, that's very good and I will I'm gonna advertise that on my podcast website as well. might even find a hopefully I'll find a link on Amazon that I can put

Richard O'Keef (44:40.807)
Yep. 911, what is your parenting emergency?

Richard O'Keef (45:00.465)
Thank you.

James Moffitt (45:06.19)
in a blog post so that people click on it and go find it. Who knows? I might want to buy a copy for myself so I can use it as reference material. So Richard, thank you so much for being here and being a guest on the podcast. I really enjoyed our conversation and I think there are a lot of things of value were put forth that were going to help parents, especially dads, dealing with things. And so to my listening audience, say,

Richard O'Keef (45:09.755)
Yep, you sure can do that.

Richard O'Keef (45:15.516)
There you go.

James Moffitt (45:35.82)
Now, thank you for the privilege of your time. you can listen to this podcast episode on Spotify, Amazon music, I heart radio, Apple podcasts, and public radio on Spotify. If you have the Spotify app on your phone or computer or whatever, you can actually watch the video version of this on the, all the other hosting providers. It's audio only. I have a website called parenting adult children.org. That's parenting adult children.org.

There you can find my contact information. can send me an email. You can leave me a voicemail. There's an upcoming show schedule. If you look at the blog, I, today I just released the, March and April episodes that are coming out. And there's a, there's a tab that you can click on and called review. If you listen to a podcast episode and you like it, or you have suggestions for other podcasts episodes.

leave a review and, and leave your comments and I'll certainly see them and we'll do see what we can do to, to get the content you're looking for. So anyway, I I release new episodes every Friday morning at 8am. And thank you for, for being here, Richard. Thank you for being a guest on this podcast and, we'll talk to everybody later. Bye bye.