Navigating the Next Chapter: Parenting Adult Children with Wisdom and Love with Emily Jacobson

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Well what happens like when you play a slot machine? If you keep putting in a penny in the penny slot, eventually it's gonna hit. And it's like that with our kids. They love to push and see how many penny how many pulls on the slot machine until she's gonna say, Okay, fine. And so I think one of the hardest jobs we have as parents is to show our kids that like it does not matter how many times you pull the slot machine, I'm gonna hold the boundary. And that discomfort that we feel inside when we wanna just give in because it's easier. I think that's one of the biggest challenges of parenting. And that's where having tools like the breathing can really help. You remove yourself from the situation, you go into your bedroom, go into the bathroom, go into the garage, wherever you can have some privacy, and just take a couple minutes to get your nervous system back to a baseline so that you don't engage in this downward spiral of co-disregulation.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

There comes a moment in every parent's life when the role they've known for years begins to change. The children they once carried, guided, and protected become adults. And suddenly the questions become different. How do you stay connected without holding on too tightly? How do you continue loving well when relationships become complicated? And while every family is different, no parent should have to navigate these questions alone. Each week, James Moppet brings together experts and parents who have walked this road before to explore the realities of parenting adult children. Through honest conversation and practical wisdom, listeners find hope for the journey ahead. Whether your relationship is thriving, strained, or somewhere in between, there is hope, there is healing, and there is always the possibility of a stronger connection. ABCs of Parenting Adult Children. Helping parents navigate loving their adult sons and daughters well.

SPEAKER_04 2:14

Hello and welcome to ABCs of Parenting Adult Children podcast. My name is James Moffat. I'll be your host. So in today's episode, we're joined by Emily Jacobson. How are you, Emily?

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Great, how are you?

SPEAKER_04 2:25

Good. So we're going to have an honest conversation about navigating the evolving relationship with your adult children. We explore communications, boundaries, and how to stay connected through every stage. Let's jump in. Emily, do me a favor and introduce yourself to the listening audience.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Yeah, my pleasure. My name is Emily Jacobson, and I am a somatic coach. So that means that I'm a coach, like a life coach, but I really focus on the body and how your actual physical body affects your ability to connect with your children, connect with your partner, hold your emotions, rein in your emotions when necessary. All these good things that basically help our relationships improve and be stronger. And um, I live in Colorado and I have two children myself. They're not quite adults yet, but they are 13 and 11. So I've been on been on a parenting journey for a bit now, and I absolutely love connecting with other parents.

SPEAKER_04 3:19

Well, I am so happy that you're on the show today, and I look forward to listening to the wisdom and knowledge that you have for us.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Well, thanks for having me. I love talking. I love talking about this work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:31

So our our listening audience is uh parents of adult children between the ages of 18 and 30. And as we know, communication is so critical. You know, I I like to say families are messy, relationships are messy, and and anything that we can do to gain more knowledge and wisdom about how we treat one another is is very key.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Like navigating relationships with our children.

SPEAKER_04 4:03

So one of the one of the things that we talk about on this podcast is the transition. You have preteens, you have teenagers, and then they transition from the teenage years into adult years, you know, 18 and beyond. And and parents also sometimes miss their transition. They've they fail to recognize that, well, you can't be a helicopter mom at this point because they're 18 now, right? You have to transition to from mother and mom to or or dad or whatever to a uh more of a support role, a mentor. And sometimes parents have a difficult time making that transition.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

I I can see that, and I think it could go either way. It could, I I think that maybe what you see more of is that you see parents who want to stay in the role of parent as opposed to migrating and sort of evolving into that role of mentor, support. Um, and then you've got this tension where the child, who's now no longer a child, but is an adult, is wanting and craving more autonomy. And when that with that shift doesn't happen and the dynamic is staying the same, it creates a lot of tension. And I think it's really tricky to navigate because there's really no hard and fast cutoff point. It's not like one day the child turns 18 and suddenly it's like, okay, now you're an adult and I'm the parent and our dynamic is gonna change, right? And when we look at actually the brain science, I mean, our brains don't even finish developing until about age 25. Newer research shows that there's even certain areas of the brain that don't fully develop until age 30. So it's hard because there's a lot of external activities that are happening, changes in a child's life, like for example, going to college if that's something they want to pursue, moving out of the house whenever they feel like they're they can do that, getting married and bringing somebody new into their lives. These all things, these things all happen at different periods of time, but the brain is still kind of maybe trying to catch up to some of these more adult-like activities. Hence, there's still a need for that guidance from the parents, but it's different and and it can be create a lot of tension, especially when the parents feel like maybe they've lost a really important role, as opposed to feeling like, wow, this is exciting. I have a new role I can step into now.

SPEAKER_04 6:28

Right. What's one mindset shift parents need to make when their children become adults?

SPEAKER_01 6:34

I think that they can invite themselves to see that they have done the hard work. And it's now time to see the rewards be reaped from all the work they've put in. Because parenting is really hard work. It's a lot of time, it's a lot of effort, and it's a lot of emotional labor because we are so invested in raising humans who grow up to be good, kind, you know, productive members of society. And there's really tough emotional roller coasters that come along through that journey. And I think that if a parent can start to think like, I have already done so much work, and I'm gonna let myself know that it's enough. And I'm gonna trust that my child is now at the point where I've done everything I can do. And now I can sort of sit back and let them take the wheel. And obviously, you're still gonna be there to course correct if they need your help. But like almost see it as an experiment of I'm gonna watch, I'm gonna step back a little bit. I'm gonna watch and I'm gonna see who this human being is that I've helped raise, that I've helped rear and see how they handle things without me having as much involvement. And that that can feel scary, right? Because there's a loss of control there. And I think something also that people don't really talk about is I think there can be some grief that comes along with it because grief is really just the loss of anything. It doesn't have to be the loss of a life. It can be the loss of a dynamic, it can be the loss of something that was really important or the loss of something that we thought was gonna happen that didn't come to fruition. I mean, all of those are different types of grief. And I do think that there is a little bit of grief as you sort of step away from that more intrical role as parent of a child and move into a little bit of a different role as parent of an adult.

SPEAKER_04 8:23

Absolutely. I hadn't really thought about that recently, but but that makes sense. I I have a podcast called Father's Refuge where we talk about uh fathers who have uh children that are sick, you know, they're going through the treatment journey. You know, they may lose the child to cancer or whatever. Like I I lot we lost the child to cancer. And so, but one of the things I taught I try to I'm trying to broaden the scope of that podcast into loss, it can be loss of a relationship, it can be loss of a career, it can be, you know, separation, divorce, all of that, right? Losing a child, obviously, or a family member, but but yeah, that's a real good point. So as I listened to you talk, I was thinking about emotional intelligence and emotional regulation. And so can you speak to the dynamic of emotional regulation and intelligence when it comes to parents communicating with adult children and vice versa?

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Absolutely. It's emotional regulation, it is probably my favorite thing to talk about because when we can understand how much our emotions are connected to the functioning and the operation of our nervous system, it provides this whole different lens through which we can see our behavior. One thing that I really struggled with as a young mom when my kids were just toddlers and in those really, really tricky years where you feel like you've just got these two little humans who are like on the brink of destruction at any moment. Either they're gonna, you know, hurt themselves or they're gonna knock something over. You know, it's just a very busy, busy time. And I found it very what I now call dysregulating. At the time, I just called it stressful.

SPEAKER_03 10:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

But, you know, our nervous systems, their main job is to keep us safe. Like the number one job of your brain, and in the being driven by the most primitive, the oldest part of your brain, its number one job is to keep you safe and alive. And so it's constantly scanning your environment for am I safe or am I unsafe? And if it determines you're safe, then it will make some sort of an a decision about what to do next. But if it decides you're unsafe, it will make a different decision. And so where things get kind of tricky is that sometimes that part of your brain sees something, someone, some situation as a threat, as if this is actually really dangerous to my safety, but it gets it wrong, right? So as a uh I think I think back to my time as a mother of younger kids, there are times where I could feel my entire body just activate with a bunch of, you know, sensation, whether that's tension or knots in my stomach, or, you know, feeling hot and flushed and angry because I felt so overwhelmed by whatever might be going on with my kids. And now I can look back and see that that was that was a protective response of my nervous system thinking that there was some sort of threat going on. And it was trying to activate me, mobilize me into maybe like a fight or flight response. And so I can look back and have so much more compassion for the way that I reacted in certain moments, because even though I didn't want to be acting that way, I can say my survival brain was actually just trying to step in and keep me safe. So having a better understanding and grasp of how our nervous system drives emotions, I think can be really helpful for parents because I don't know about you, but when I have moments that I can reflect on and maybe I'm not proud of my behavior, there can be times of feeling some shame, like, oh man, I really should have held it together. I can't believe I snapped at my child. I should, I know better. I should be stronger than this. But when you look at it through the lens of nervous system regulation, you can say, wow, it makes sense that I got, I got worked up in the moment. It makes sense that I snapped or whatever. So having that compassion, I think, is helpful because then we can move on to the most important thing in relationship when we get into these situations where we've therapists might call it rupture, a rupture, right? A fight, some sort of conflict. As long as you repair after the rupture, the the relationship's gonna be okay. And so I talk a lot with my coaching clients about like, all right, so there was a rupture. Let's get curious about why your body was trying to keep you safe in that moment. Let's forgive ourselves and then let's move forward towards the repair part so that you can keep that relationship intact.

SPEAKER_04 15:46

Right. Very good. So I'm I'm flashing back to when my children were still teenagers.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 15:53

They were older teenagers, you know, like 16, 17 years old. Katie and I were we were in the kitchen making hamburger help hamburger helper or something, right? We were talking about our day, what have you. And I saw out of the corner of my eye, I saw my daughter walk into the kitchen. She was next to her mother. I was on the right side, next to the sink, stove, whatever. And I noticed there was something different. So I just kind of casually looked over at her and she had shaved one side, half of her head, she had shaved it bald, and the other part was her regular hair that was multicolored. And I was, I'm just using this as an example, right? And so in this instance, I didn't blow up at her. You know, I'm I I'm I'm a baby boomer, you know, I turned 65 this year. Back then, I think I was in my late 40s, you know, and so so we all have a picture uh of who we want our children to become. Of course. Right. That's not always realistic. So sometimes our children are gonna just whack out on us. You know, they're gonna they're gonna do something really, really what we would consider abnormal. And that that causes tension in us. It causes us to maybe lose our cool and blow up. And yeah, uh, I have to say that in this instance, I didn't. Somehow I managed to hold it together and I didn't react. I just kind of looked at her and said, so so this is the look for this week, or something, something to that effect, you know, and I think she was looking for a reaction. I think that part of her doing that was was to get a rise out of us, right? And and so you know, you know, parents, they're gonna come to you and say, Well, I'm gay, or they're gonna come to us and be like my daughter and just have you know purple, red, and yellow hair or blue hair, or half shaved, half unshaved, or or nose rings, or tongue studs, or body art and all this stuff, right? So, so how does a parent navigate all of that?

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Yeah. Oh, that's such a good question. I have a lot of thoughts. First of all, I'll say I wonder if thinking about your story, it sounds like maybe there had been other instances where your daughter had done, had made, let's call it a choice in self-expression.

SPEAKER_05 18:13

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Maybe there had been previous instances. And so when you're saying, like, oh, is this the look this week? that makes me think, this is not the first time. This is not your first rodeo, right?

SPEAKER_05 18:24

No.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

So here's something really interesting about the way that our brains work. So as Homo sapiens have evolved over time, we've gotten really good at predicting, predicting outcomes. Because if you can predict how something's gonna turn out, then you're more likely to be able to manage something when it actually comes to fruition, right? And if you've kind of already like planned, okay, if this happens, here's what I'm gonna do, then you can save energy in that moment because you don't have to be scrambling going, oh gosh, I never thought about this scenario. What should I do? Because that's like a waste of energy. Now, in this day and age, like we have plenty of food. We don't have to worry about it. But if you think about back to 300,000 years ago when we emerged and were, you know, living in caves and whatnot, we really had to conserve energy because we might not know when we were going to get our next meal. So over time's over time, our brains have gotten really good at predicting outcomes. And you know what we base those predictions on is past experience. So I wonder if some part of your brain saw half of the hair is gone, the other half is multicolored, and you're like, your brain at rapid speed behind the scenes. This is like a program running in the background, is thinking, oh, I've seen this movie before. I've seen the scene where my daughter comes in with some sort of really out there self-expressing thing, and I didn't die. I don't need to freak out this time, you know, because we learn over time what's actually a threat and what's not. Now, there's part of probably another part of your brain that was kind of like, really, really, this is the choice you've made. Have you looked in the mirror? You know? But you were able to hold it together in that moment and and acknowledge, okay? So that that's one piece. I also want to talk about why, the why behind teens and these decisions with regard to self-expression and sometimes why it's just so wacky and out there, and we're we're scratching our heads going, do you think this is looks good or something? There's something else about humans that as we are starting to differentiate from our parents, and that's like really the entire process of childhood, is is differentiation individuation. I think that there for some kids, there's like this sense of how far can I stray? How far can I take it to show that I am indeed an individual different and distinct from my caretakers? How far can I go and they'll still love me? How far can I push and still be accepted? Because that's another core need that we have as humans is to be accepted and to stay in the tribe. Because if you were living in a cave with a community of 50 people and you got kicked out of the tribe, you were not gonna survive. So there's this, there's this need for us to kind of stay in line, if you will. And I think that like from a parent's perspective, there's probably a worry in the back of a parent's mind of like, oh my gosh, my kid is being so on the edge. They're gonna get kicked out of the tribe, so to speak. And that, of course, becomes a worry as a caretaker because it's like you want your kid to conform, because the most primitive part of your brain knows that conforming is what keeps you in the group so that you can still benefit from the community, the food, the shelter, the safety, the protection. And so I think I really like to look at these things from like a almost like an anthropology perspective. Like, why do we do these things? Why do we get worked up by them? Why do we sometimes hold it together? And what's the purpose of the teen pushing the limits? And I really do believe it's an exercise and individuation, which is a a normal part of the growing up process.

SPEAKER_04 22:08

Right. Well, one of the things my parents taught me as a young man, as a child, as a young man, whatever, teenager. I think this was more my dad than my mom. And I was my sister and I were adopted, and uh my dad was a drilling drill instructor for 26 years in the army. My mother was Austrian, European descent, so they were both disciplinarians, authoritative, you know.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

I was gonna say you definitely have more of an authoritarian situation in your probably.

SPEAKER_04 22:39

And so I just lost my I lost my train of thought.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

Well, we were talking about teens individuating and pushing limits.

SPEAKER_04 22:46

My dad taught me, he said, he says, you need to think about what you you're fixing to do. Before you make a decision, think about it. And that echoes in my head all the time. Think about what you're fixing to do before you make a decision. Because why? Because your decisions can last, they can have ramifications and consequences that'll last a lifetime.

SPEAKER_05 23:06

Sure. Right.

SPEAKER_04 23:07

And so as I look back at my daughter's coming of age, her individualization, whatever you want to call it, whatever the whatever the the technical name for that is, the therapeutic name. What did you call it?

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Individuation.

SPEAKER_04 23:22

Individuation. Okay. So she was she was defining who she was to us, right? And to the world, for that matter. Well, now she's in her twenties and she's got so much body art and tattoos on her and and and and all of that. She has a very difficult time finding a regular job. Well, she has a just for instance, she has a tattoo across her forehead, right? And it's not normal. In my mind, it's not normal. And in in in corporate America, it's not I don't want to say they're judging her.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

But it's not welcome.

SPEAKER_04 23:57

It's not welcome. They don't appreciate it. And they have they don't want you standing behind a counter and dealing with customers looking like a freak, right? And so and and so that decision that she made to adorn her skin with tattoo art everywhere, you know, is affecting her ability today to find a decent job. And and so there's there's a there's this tension and conflict with parents when they when they see they see the child in the little little red wagon and it's going too fast, and you're afraid it's gonna careen off the edge and go down, you know, they're just gonna crash and burn and kill themselves, or they're gonna run off the mountain. You don't want them to do that. You don't want them to crash their little red wagon. So so there's a tension between keeping them from killing themselves versus allowing them to be who they wanna be.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:55

So how does how does a parent Negotiate that.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

For sure. I mean, talk about that.

SPEAKER_04 25:00

I should have asked you that question about 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Well, I mean, first of all, talk about a million-dollar question because I think what you're getting at is the importance of having the kind of relationship with your children where they feel safe enough to be themselves and you allow a certain amount of self-expression and autonomy, and at the same time recognize that their brains are not fully developed and they might need some help making good decisions that won't have lifelong consequences. And I mean, I think that's one of the most difficult things to achieve. And I'll I'll say a couple of things that I think can help with it. This is not going to be a like, you know, magic wand kind of answer, but I think there's two things that can really help. One is knowing that like having an environment within the household where self-expression is safe and appreciated. Because, and I'm not saying this is your situation. I put this is a very broad brushstrokes here, but where there's enough room for safe self-expression, there's not the need to, because of maybe feeling stifled or extremely restricted, there's no need to like totally go overboard. It is like a backlash, if you will. And so as parents are trying to navigate, like, oh my gosh, like this is a little bit edgy for me, but might it be an okay distance to allow my child to go to keep to have that balance between like they want to self-express and I'm gonna allow some of it, but like not so much. And and what in those moments where the parent is trying to decide, okay, I'm gonna allow this little bit of like self-expression for them and it's making me uncomfortable, is how can I make myself more comfortable in the moment so that I can sort of allow it to happen. And that's where nervous system tools come in. And I can I can teach, I can talk about a couple of actual tools that your audience can use here in a second. Absolutely. But the other point I the other point I wanted to make was I do think that, you know, there's there's a skill that we learn over time called inhibition. Inhibition is where you are able to not do the thing that you are feeling called to do. It's the ability to stop and do exactly, James, what you were talking about that your dad told you about. He was telling you to try to have a greater sense of inhibition. And that's where you stop and you think, is this something I really want to do or not? Is the this this is this a good decision or a bad decision? And the ability to stop in that moment and actually have that self-talk and have that conversation, that ability, some kids develop it a lot later than others. And especially like neurodivergent kids, it takes them a lot longer to develop their inhibition skills than it does for a neurotypical kid. So my idea there would be to teach, actually, teach your kids some nervous system tools that grow the part of your brain that's responsible for inhibition. It's basically practicing the skill of inhibition and in a really safe way that then will translate into more real-life situations. So I know that I know that you probably have some set questions, but at some point, like I'd love to tell you a drill that I do with my kids to teach inhibition. And then I'd love to tell you a drill that I do myself to calm myself down when I'm feeling like, oh my gosh, I I've got a parenting situation that feels really hard and I'm trying to manage my way through it.

SPEAKER_04 28:33

No, I absolutely do it.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Okay, let's do it. So let's talk about the inhibition part first. So I have some actual like pieces of paper, like tools that I give my clients when we're in session that they can use, but I've come up with a different version of it that's just totally free for anybody to do. Okay. So I I like to do this with my son, and we kind of make it into a game. This could be hard to get for get teens to do, but you could do it with like elementary and middle school kids probably. And it's a great way to grow the skill of inhibition. Okay. So I'm telling you, James, let's pretend that you're my son, and I'm gonna say, James, we're gonna play the red blue game. Every time you look around and you're in the room and you see red, I want you to look at it and I want you to tell me that it's actually blue. And when you see something that's actually blue, I want you to say red. And so I might actually point the things out. So I might be with my son and we'll be sitting in the living room and I'll point outside at the sky and I'll say, What color is the sky? And he has to say red, even though it's blue. Because in this game, we're we're playing red, blue, and we're switching those. So I'll point at a red sweater and he has to say blue. And we do it really fast because in the moment, what he's doing is he's practicing inhibiting his instinct, which is to say the actual color of the object, and he's then forcing himself to say the opposite color. So you can see how that could be kind of fun and silly to just point, point, point, and he's going red, blue, blue, red, blue, but it's the opposite color. And so his brain has to work really hard. We're engaging his visual system, which is a really important part of your nervous system's functioning. He's engaging his prefrontal cortex, which is the most evolved part of the brain, and he's practicing the skill of stopping and doing something different than what his instinct is telling him to do. Isn't that interesting?

SPEAKER_04 30:23

Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

So I have all sorts of tools like that that I teach my clients so that they can do them with their kids and teach their kids to kind of like work that muscle of inhibition so that when they are teens and maybe they're in a peer pressure situation, they have the practice of stopping and kind of like pushing away that impulse to just like make the bad choice with the friends. And instead, they're gonna like, oh, maybe I should think this through. Maybe I should think about what I'm trying to be fixing to do before I do it. Right. Like a dad's. And I also I'll say that I use these inhibitory tools with myself because learning how to not immediately respond to like whatever my emotions are driving and stop and then react or respond rather than react has helped me be such a better parent because I can stay calm in situations that I used to get triggered in. And partly it's because I've worked so hard on these inhibitory skills. So I said I was gonna teach two tools. Let me teach you another one. When you are having a tough parenting moment, let's say that you didn't, let's say that your daughter came in with this new hairstyle that was extreme and you weren't able to quote hold it together like you did in that moment. I think it's really useful to have a tool that you can use right then and there to once you feel that activation rising up in your body, whether it's anger, frustration, rage, whatever it is, to kind of push. I'm not saying to ignore it. I'm saying to keep it, keep a lid on it so that you can stay engaged in conversation with your child. Right. So you can stay connected. Okay. So one of the best ways that we can do that is to use your breath. And I'm not gonna sit here and just say, oh, take a deep breath, because I think that that is overplayed and I don't even think it's good advice. What I tell my clients to do is to take a long exhale. And let me tell you why. So there's two branches of your autonomic nervous system. Autonomic is the part it's just kind of running in the background. Okay. On one side of the spectrum, you have the sympathetic branch. The other side is the parasympathetic branch. So the sympathetic side of your nervous system is like the get up and go. It's like I have energy, I'm activated, I'm mobilized. It's great. If you didn't have sympathetic activation, like you wouldn't be able to have a conversation with me right now. You probably would have canceled and like you'd be on the couch. Okay. So we love a sympathetic nervous system. It's great. We need it. The problem is when it gets really overly activated and we move into like a fight response or we get a massive anxiety attack. That's like too much activation. Okay. Other side of the spectrum is the parasympathetic side. That's what some people would just simply call the rest and digest state. That's where your body is calm enough to know that like there are no threats at bay. I can just chill out. So when you are in a situation where you're parenting and your child's doing something that is like starting to make you feel way activated on the sympathetic side of things and you want to bring yourself back to center, you can use your breath to move yourself towards the parasympathetic. And I like to engage in a pattern of breathing that's three, five, eight. Three is how long you're gonna inhale. Five is how long you're gonna hold the air in your lungs, and eight is how long you're gonna exhale. So you can imagine that if you start to feel like there's gonna be a tough conversation, you could right in that moment just do a couple rounds of breathing, of breathing, just breathing in. One, two, three, hold for five, and then slowly exhale for eight. And just the like two or three rounds of that kind of breathing is enough to just take it down a notch.

SPEAKER_05 33:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

So you can get your brain out of this fight or flight state that's being driven by your primitive brain and move your activation up into the part of your brain that can actually think straight, that can reason and be rational and that can have a good quality conversation.

SPEAKER_04 34:14

I've had to do that on many occasions.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Well, good. I'm glad that you're doing it instead of just lashing out.

SPEAKER_04 34:20

There's there's some times that I'll just lash out. You know, I was my I was my I was my dad. You know, you you parent the way you were parented, unless you unless you can get intelligent about it.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

James, we do what we are modeled, no? We do the best we can with the tools that we have. And so even me, I mean, I am not a perfect parent. I spend five to ten minutes every single day doing nervous system exercises because that's what my commitment is to myself and it's what I know has changed me. But I still have moments where I'm just by the end of the day, I'm tapped out.

SPEAKER_05 34:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

You know, and if my son is resisting bedtime and I've asked him 10 times very kindly and calmly to please brush his teeth and put his pajamas on and get ready for bed, and he just doesn't do it.

SPEAKER_05 35:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

You know, I only have so much bandwidth to stay calm. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_05 35:12

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

But to have some tools in the moment where now instead of lashing out, I might feel that activation and say to him, you know, I'm feeling frustrated by the fact that you are not doing what I've asked you to do. And I'm gonna go take a minute, I'll be back in two minutes, and I'll go to my bedroom and I'll do some sort of nervous system exercise because it's normal to have emotional responses to conflict or to our children when they're they're making choices that aren't in their best interest.

SPEAKER_04 35:39

So that's a perfect segue into my next question. So, how should parents handle disagreement without damaging the relationship?

SPEAKER_01 35:46

Are you talking about disagreement between two parents or between parent and child?

SPEAKER_04 35:50

No, parent-child.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

Parent-child, okay.

unknown 35:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 35:53

Um In other words, in other words, you've you've told them a million and one times that they should take the trash out. And that's important that they take the trash out. That that's their chore to do. That's how they that's how they they contribute to the family life, right? And they just flip you off and go, that's not as important as you think it is. I'm just not gonna do it. So you're in a disagreement.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 36:16

Well, that's one example. That's one example.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

Yeah, no, it's a great, it's a great example. I think that first of all, you have to evaluate, and this is maybe not in the moment, but it's important to evaluate what kind of expectations have been set in the house. And it sounds to me like in this scenario, the expectation has very clearly been set that this is part of being a contributing member to this family unit. We live in this house together and we all have to keep it running. And this is one of the things that you're in charge of. So the expectation is there. That's already been clear. Because I sometimes find that like parents will sort of spring something on their kid and they're like, well, I've never had to do this before. You know, kids love to understand what's expected of them, right? So that's step number one. So let's say it's very clearly expected. I do think that there have to be predetermined consequences for things that are expected to be done. Because, you know, for a long time I tried to parent with, well, you know, just constantly being understanding and empathetic. And if we have a strong enough relationship, like I don't need to have consequences. Well, I very quickly realized, actually, probably not quickly, it took me too long, but I did finally realize that that is not setting our kids up for the real world.

SPEAKER_04 37:30

Right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Because if you get fired out of college or out of high school and you have a job and you just don't feel like going one day, if you do that enough times, you're gonna get fired.

SPEAKER_05 37:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

And so if we don't have these low stakes consequences in our own homes, then you're really setting your kids up to go out into the real world and fail because they're not gonna understand that actions have consequences. I do think it's also important to have consequences pre-established that are like, you know, miss if you miss your trash duty three times in a week, you're gonna lose whatever it is. I mean, whether it's screen time, phone access, time with friends, I I don't know. That's very personal to family family. Sure. But when it comes to the actual, like in the moment we're in a disagreement, I think that the there's no use in continuing to battle it out because it's just gonna kind of escalate. Sort of like escalate. Thank you. Took the word out of my mouth that I couldn't get out. It's gonna escalate. And then it's probably going to turn into what I call a downward spiral of co-disregulation. What we're wanting with our kids is co-regulation. That's where we're borrowing each other's nervous systems in a beneficial way that we're keeping each other steady, calm, and ready, like sort of clear-headed and ready to stay in relationships. But when we get into these battles and nobody stops the battle, which is mainly the parents' job, is to just like end it, we end up in this downward spiral where everybody just gets worse and worse and worse. And so I normally would recommend saying something very simple, like, I see that you're making the choice not to take the trash out. We've discussed that it's an expectation that you carry out this responsibility. And as we've discussed, there are consequences for not following through. I'm going to give you space right now because this is no longer a productive conversation, but we're going to talk later. And literally just go to another room because that's I just think it's like showing we've talked about this. You know it's expected. I know it's expected. I am going to hold a boundary. And because I know, I don't know if all parents are like this, but I sometimes have a tough time holding the boundary. It gets uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_05 39:42

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

It's pretty easy to just be like, okay, you're tired from school, fine, but next time you better do it. You know, well, what happens like when you play a slot machine? If you keep putting in a penny in the penny slot, eventually it's gonna hit.

SPEAKER_05 39:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

And it's like that with our kids. They love to push and see how many penny, how many pulls on the slot machine until she's gonna say, okay, fine. And so I think one of the hardest jobs we have as parents is to show our kids that like, it does not matter how many times you pull the slot machine, I'm gonna hold the boundary. And that discomfort that we feel inside when we want to just give in because it's easier. I think that's one of the biggest challenges of parenting. And that's where having tools like the breathing can really help. You remove yourself from the situation, you go into your bedroom, go into the bathroom, go into the garage, wherever you can have some privacy, and just take a couple of minutes to get your nervous system back to a baseline so that you don't engage in this downward spiral of co-disregulation.

SPEAKER_04 40:41

So I just had a thought.

SPEAKER_01 40:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:43

Those are dangerous. Those are those get me in trouble sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Do they keep your podcasts running long?

SPEAKER_04 40:49

Yeah, absolutely. So, no, seriously, the and I'm coming from a parent parental, and I think this is more something that happens with moms versus dads. I think I think moms get into a trap of worrying that holding a boundary is going to to reflect badly on them as a parent. In other words, if I hold her to if I hold him to this boundary, then he's gonna think that I'm some some kind of raving lunatic, that it's just a it's just a power play, that they they're just trying to exercise their power over me. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Why you gotta call me out like that, James? I know exactly what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_04 41:26

So, so as this is running through mom's head, and I'm sure there's moms listening to this episode whenever it releases, I'm sure there's moms listening to this episode episode going, oh my God, he's reading my mind. How do they how does mom handle that?

SPEAKER_01 41:40

Well, I think, and so let me just elaborate a little bit and you tell me if I'm on track here. I think that generally when we've got two parent households where we've got a female identifying mom and a male identifying dad, okay, traditional family unit. I think that on the spectrum of parenting styles, okay. I think that on the one end, the very extreme end, which is probably where women might fall, is being more permissive because it's warmer, it's more understanding, it's more empathetic. The very other end of the spectrum is authoritarian. That's like, I'm the adult, what I say goes, I don't really care what you think. Get in line. And right in the middle is really what healthy parenting is all about, and that's called authoritative. Because you're the authority. You're not an authoritarian dictator, you're an authority on being a human because you're older, you have more experience. And so what I see a lot in family units is despite the fact that this is the ideal, dads tend to go more on the authoritarian side, not all the way, but they they play in that space. And the moms tend to play in the more permissive space because of what you're worried about. And what can happen is if the mom is getting a little too permissive in the dad's eyes, then the dad is going to push a little bit more to his side of the spectrum to balance it out. And if you're not careful, suddenly you've got this massive dynamic of, well, dad's the mean one and mom's the nice one. But what it really is is mom's being a pushover and dad's being kind of a jerk to try to balance things out. Right. And so my invitation and now you're reading my mind. Okay, okay. So here's my and honestly, like I I say this from a very honest and vulnerable place because that was the dynamic that I was in in my marriage, which I'm no longer married. I have a co-parent now who we co-parent our kids 50-50 and we do a beautiful job. So any listeners that are curious about how nervous system regulation can help you go through a divorce, I'm your gal. But that was playing out in my house. And once we got divorced, I had to take a really hard look at myself because suddenly I was in a single parent household and I was a push-over permissive parent. And it wasn't going well. So I really had to challenge myself to push more to the middle and see myself not as mom's being mean. I had to reimagine myself as I am the authority. I do know more than these kids. And you know what? Their brains are not fully developed. And if I don't help them, they're never going to know how to help themselves. And so it's been a really, really hard but beautiful period of growth for my family because I have become more confident in my ability to hold boundaries. And I've used my nervous system regulation tools to hold myself through it. And what I've realized, I will tell, I will say this to any mom or potentially more permissive leaning dad who's listening, and you feel that discomfort of holding the boundary and you feel like you're being mean, I will say that what I've found is when I hold the boundary, first of all, the resistance doesn't last as long as I thought it was going to. It's like right when I'm about to give in, if I just hold the boundary one or two more times, then it finally they're like, okay, she means business. They don't say she means business, but my like my son will say, okay. And in his head, I know, I know he's going, okay, she really means it. The second thing is the more you do it, there's like a little bit of a tough like pushback at first. It's what therapists might call an extinction burst. It's where like suddenly your kid's like, whoa, she's actually got rules and and limits now. I better test that and see if she means it. So there will be this period of time where basically it gets worse before it gets better. But I will say is like as long as you keep holding the line and you don't let them play the slot machine on you, because if one time out of 10 you say yes, they'll know, well, I just have to keep asking. So once you can hold that boundary enough times that they realize that like the slot machine's not gonna give me anything, they just stop pushing. So it's a real like exercise. Honestly, like I say this all the time to my clients. I think parenting is the biggest exercise in personal growth we will ever experience should we choose to see it as that opportunity.

SPEAKER_04 46:03

Okay, and we'll throw you a curveball.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

Gosh, am I ready?

SPEAKER_04 46:06

I think you are.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

I think I'm ready.

SPEAKER_04 46:07

One of the things that that I have wanted to do is interview a single mom with a blended family. And I've got somebody in mind, and they don't want to be on the show. They don't even want to be anonymous. You know, we could just do we could do we can do audio only, no video, and you can change your name to Mary Beth or Sally Sue or whatever, right?

SPEAKER_03 46:32

Yeah.

unknown 46:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:32

I get that. I get I get that there's a there's a vulnerability there, and I get that there's a whatever. Okay. So and I try to respect that. But anyway, she's she says yes, but she's doing no, you know, so I've I finally quit asking her. But I think that I think that there are a lot of a lot of blended families out there that might be struggling. Like you were talking about, you're talking about the and today and then This day and age, it may not be typical anymore. You know, I in the 70s and 80s, there was one mom and one dad identifying as female and male, right? And you know, talking about the authority, you know, spectrum for lack of better words.

SPEAKER_01 47:10

Yeah, no, it's great.

SPEAKER_04 47:11

But but now you have same-sex marriages and you have blended families and you have, you know, and it's it's how do they do all that? Or what or what could we tell them to make their life easier as a parent?

SPEAKER_01 47:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:27

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

Yeah, no, it totally makes sense. And I am not at the point in my post-divorce life where I have experience with having a new situation where there's like another partner in the mix and potentially other kids in the mix. And I I have friends with that situation and clients with that situation. And I'll say that like really, I think the foundation to navigating all of that change where you're where you're where your family goes from like a traditional unit that you did not think was gonna fall apart, because it's my firm belief that nobody goes into marriage thinking, you know, this, I think this will last a good 10 years and then it'll probably fall apart. Just fall like, right, I don't think anybody's going into their marriage thinking it'll probably end, right? So when it does, it's really hard because I'll go back to grief. It's grief, it's the loss of the family unit that you were in. And this is grief for all parties, parents and kids. It's grief because you've lost the vision of what you assumed your life would be like down the line. And so that is a lot to go through. And I think that the foundation for really helping kids go through it in the healthiest way possible is to acknowledge the grief and to acknowledge the fact that they, the kids, did not ask for this. It wouldn't be their choice. Now, maybe there's a situation where there's a parent who is abusive or neglecting and they're happy that things change. But by and large, kids don't want their parents to get divorced. And so to really just very honestly say to the kids, and this isn't about groveling and saying, oh, I screwed up, it's not even necessarily apologizing because I think that most people get divorced because they believe it's the best choice for everybody involved in the long term. So you don't have to grovel and like tell your kids, oh, I'm so sorry, and I've screwed up your life because you haven't. But to just own, I know that this isn't what you would have chosen. And I know that it must be really just acknowledging, like it must be really hard to feel like something so major is happening to you that you have no control over. I bet that's really hard. And just letting them be seen. Because at the end of the day, sometimes I think that's all humans want is to just be seen, seen in their struggle, but also be seen in their power, you know, telling your kids not just that you're proud of them, but saying, wow, you must be so proud of yourself when they do something great. And so, you know, as far as families that are that are struggling to figure out how to integrate and blend, like I don't have any experience with that, but I would imagine that it's got to be a lot of open conversations. And emotions have to be safe to be expressed because the truth is our emotions are there for a reason. They're giving us information, and we just we have to acknowledge them, otherwise they get stuffed down and then they come out sideways.

SPEAKER_04 50:09

Very good. All right, so I want to give you three minutes, like an elevator speech, three to five minutes.

SPEAKER_01 50:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 50:15

You're talking to talking to parents and grandparents of adult children. What would you tell them?

SPEAKER_01 50:21

Okay. So, parents, your kids are now adults, but guess what? They're gray area adults. When they were kids, they were they were, you know, on the white end of the spectrum of of being a human, and then you're like in the black area because you're way past 30, but there's this whole gray area in the middle. And so, in the same way that they're not going to turn into a full-fledged adult overnight, and you can't expect that of them, you're not gonna turn into a full-fledged separated adult parent of an adult overnight. So try to find the beauty in the gray every single day. And don't make assumptions in both directions. Number one, don't make assumptions that your kid is totally helpless and don't keep trying to parent them as if that they are are not growing up and evolving. And don't assume that just because they're of a certain age that they have it all figured out. I invite you to have conversations with them to ask them things like, hey, how's managing your finances going? Does it feel hard? Does it feel confusing? I'd love to sit down with you anytime if you feel like you need some help. Let them know that you're there as a resource, but you're not there as an authority to tell them what to do anymore. And just try to keep things light because there's still so much fun to be had. They're not kids anymore, but they're still your kids and they're still a joy.

SPEAKER_04 51:35

Well, thank you. That's probably one of the best elevator speeches I've heard in a long time.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

Well, I didn't even prepare. I think I just must be on my game today, James.

SPEAKER_04 51:43

Yes, you did very well, and I think that was good advice. And I like I like how you talk about the gray area and how you can you can kind of relax and breathe and and not not not feel any pressure, but also don't impose any pressure, right?

SPEAKER_01 51:59

Yeah, yeah, and and it it's easier said than done, but just having these conversations and being aware of it, I think it's a huge step into developing something really healthy.

SPEAKER_04 52:12

And I think the younger you start, the better it is, right?

SPEAKER_01 52:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:15

Starting having a having a real good, solid relationship where there's trust and respect. So when you get to the when you get to the adult stage. And we've we've seen those families that you know, these perfect families. No, I'm kidding. Those those families, you know, you go to church or go to whatever, wherever you go, you know, you go to you'll I'll just say church because that was has been my experience for many years. And you see these families in church that you know you watch the father and the teenagers interact, right? And you can kind of tell where there's real healthy relationships going on, and there's really a lot of boundary pushing, right? And and they're they're being kind of respectful and and towing the line, but not because they really want to either, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_01 53:02

There might not be true safety there. And that's that's really what all of my work comes down to, and really what all of nervous system health comes down to is safety. If we don't feel safe, we're not gonna act in a regulated way. And so one of the best things you can do for your kids as a parent is to teach them that you are safe. You're a safe place, you're a safe place where they can be honest, you're a safe place where they can be vulnerable. And I think that that will carry through into that stronger relationship as they move into that gray area of young adulthood.

SPEAKER_04 53:36

So, Emily, how how would people get a hold of you if they were they wanted to talk to you or you Yeah. You have a book, right?

SPEAKER_01 53:44

I do not have a book. I have a free resource on my website, which is kind of a mini book. It's probably longer than it needs to be for a free resource, but um, I have a website. It's just emilyjacobson.com, and you can learn about my parent coaching offerings and my nervous system coaching offerings there, but you can, it's pretty easy to find the free download. And it's just kind of a higher level level conversation on what the nervous system is. And I've got a couple more nervous system tools in there if people are interested. Totally free. You just have to put in your name and your email so that I can bother you with a newsletter or two in exchange. I also on social media, I like to spend my time on Instagram. And my handle there is at Emily Jacobson Coaching. And I post things like when I've been on podcasts, I also like to talk about the nervous system and sometimes just give fun little insights into my life and how I'm navigating challenges as a parent because gosh, we I think we all need to know that it's not easy and we're not alone.

SPEAKER_04 54:46

Amen. Well, thank you for being on the show. I've really enjoyed talking with you and listening to your wisdom.

SPEAKER_01 54:51

And thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_04 54:52

The the explanations of putting putting difficult concepts into words that we can understand. And to the listening audience, I want to say thank you for the privilege of your time. Thanks for joining us today on ABC's of Parenting Adult Children with Emily Jacobson. If this conversation encouraged you, be sure to subscribe, share it with another parent, leave a review. Remember, you're not alone in this journey, and growth is always possible. We'll see you next time.