The Intersection of Military Life and Family Care

James Moffitt (00:01.319)
Hello and welcome to Parenting Adult Children podcast. My name is James Moffitt. Today we have Jonathan, who is a special guest. I don't know how to say your last name, Jonathan.

Jonathan Knaul (00:11.308)
Null. The case is silent. Thank you.

James Moffitt (00:13.605)
No, Jonathan, no. Hey, Jonathan, thanks for being on the episode today. Hey, do me a favor and introduce yourself to the listening audience.

Jonathan Knaul (00:16.579)
Hey.

Jonathan Knaul (00:21.198)
Yeah. First of all, thank you for tuning in. Thank you, James, for having me on the podcast. It's a pleasure and an honor. And again, especially somebody who supports veterans. James, I introduced my name correctly. I'm Jonathan Knoll. I'm a 33-year veteran of the Canadian Armed Forces, tactical pilot, deployed, domestic, lots of activity through a very interesting career.

And I'm also a test pilot. And since I retired from the military, I'm full-time test pilot instructor down here in Mojave, California with the National Test Pilot School. And I recently authored a book called Final Approach, a Test Pilot Story of Caring for Loved Ones, where I chronicled my taking care of both my parents through to their passing. So I think that's the short story.

James Moffitt (01:13.949)
All right, let me bring up your book real quick and show it to the listening audience or the watching audience for that matter. Is it on Amazon?

Jonathan Knaul (01:17.592)
Yeah.

Jonathan Knaul (01:23.498)
It's on all venues. There's also my website, finalapproachbook.com. It's one word, finalapproachbook.com, but every venue has it, very widely distributed. launched, gosh, it's only been three weeks now, early June we launched it and it's self-published under my own publishing company. And yeah, very, very proud. Yeah, that'd be great. Thank you.

James Moffitt (01:46.173)
Alright, let me share this real quick. Let me share this. Yeah, absolutely. And when the

James Moffitt (01:57.949)
I'm trying to get a little better at this. Is that it?

Jonathan Knaul (01:59.86)
that's all right. Yeah, that's the one. That's the front cover. I'm very proud of it. The pictures that are inside near the back are for the most part mine. I'm an amateur photographer too. So the one on the front is my hand to my mom's about a year before she passed. I selfie-ed it on film and I still shoot film. And so we made that the cover, the collective we, but again, I self-published. So yeah, very proud of that.

James Moffitt (02:02.556)
Yeah.

James Moffitt (02:15.868)
Aww.

James Moffitt (02:28.422)
So the...

Jonathan's website. I'll get this out here in a second. It's finalapproachbook.com. It says a moving memoir about balancing life and caregiving with love, loss, and resistance. And I, there was two things about your profile I really loved. One is that you are a veteran. And number two, you're going to, you know, your book probably talks about grief and probably talks about caregiving.

Jonathan Knaul (02:37.047)
Sure, yeah.

Jonathan Knaul (02:41.505)
That's right.

Jonathan Knaul (02:47.447)
Resilience.

James Moffitt (03:02.382)
in self care is a topic or it's a reoccurring topic on our podcast. And so I've, that's why at reached out to you or you reached out to me and I was like, yeah, that's perfect. Perfect match. So.

Jonathan Knaul (03:15.821)
Again, yeah, real honor to be on here. So I'm excited and I'm sure your listeners are interested and I'm thankful to them for tuning in and listeners, viewers, because I guess we're doing audio and video. So it's really nice.

James Moffitt (03:31.569)
Yeah, I released the video version on rumble.com and on my YouTube channel. And then the audio version goes out everywhere. So, I have to say that, well, I come from a military background. I've never served in the military. have a club foot from birth and, none of the military branches, in the United States wanted me because I, they considered me disabled. You know, that's fine. I did my part. I, I registered for the, whatever they call it, the draft or whatever.

Jonathan Knaul (03:38.423)
That's cool.

James Moffitt (04:01.084)
but my dad was a drill instructor in the army for 26 years and my brother-in-law is with the Marine Corps. he's retired since retired and now he's a civil servant, at the Pentagon doing, don't know what. and, so yeah, yeah, I'm very, very supportive of the armed service services and I appreciate your service to your country. And I have to say that the eight-year-old boy in me, every time I walk by a

Jonathan Knaul (04:24.514)
Thank

James Moffitt (04:30.042)
mirror or do a podcast episode. The eight year old in me is going, what happened to you? And I have to say that, that, every time I see a jet fly over, I don't care where I'm at. If I'm in a parking lot and I'm getting out of my car, I always stopped to look. And, we lived at a townhome, here in North Charles or in North Charleston at one point. And it was on the direct flight path for the Boeing test pilots. And they would, they would.

They would, you know, they obviously they manufacture jets and, uh, I've been by their plant here in North, in North Charleston. They have them all lined up, right? Uh, you know, it's amazing how they manufacture those things. And anyway, the test pilot test pilots would, test those jets and they would, they would, we, we had like a townhome, you know, like a two story townhome, bedrooms were all upstairs and living room was downstairs.

And I was in a, I'd be in a recliner watching the news or doing whatever I was doing on my laptop. And I'd hear one coming and my wife would laugh at me and go, I'm like, you're going to kill yourself trying to get out of that recliner and get out the front door out into the parking lot to see one of those things. And nine times out of 10, I was able to do it. And as I learned that as soon as I started to hear it, I'd have to get out of my recliner, ditch the laptop, run out the front door, get out in the parking lot, you know, and they were fairly low. They were flying fairly low. felt, I feel like if I'd had a.

one of those wrist rockets, you know, with a rock or something, I probably hit the underside of that thing without a problem. Not that I would ever do that, but you know, I always said I'm going to leave some milk and cookies on the roof. That way the pilots can reach out and grab it on their way by and that way, you know, they could have a snack. Those things are loud, but anyway, yeah. I, the eight year old in me is very much, into, you know, jet fighters and.

Jonathan Knaul (06:04.385)
Yeah.

James Moffitt (06:26.966)
We go to Tanger outlet and eat lunch at IHOP. My wife and I get a big steak omelet and, and jet fighters will, know, like last time we were there, there was like five of them that just took off. And, know, after the, after the, I thought there were the first one, second one, was like, okay, well that's it. Well, there was like five of them and I never made it outside. I did go outside, but they, was like, okay, I'm going to go outside and see if another one launches. And of course it didn't. And, and they're very low when they're coming into.

Jonathan Knaul (06:40.183)
Yeah.

Jonathan Knaul (06:56.141)
Mm-hmm.

James Moffitt (06:56.368)
to land. Of course, those jet fighters, you know, those are, just an aluminum frame on a couple of rockets. Right. So those things are loud. Holy cow.

Jonathan Knaul (07:02.273)
Yeah. yeah. Yeah, we call it a blowtorch with a seat on top. Or two.

James Moffitt (07:08.934)
Y'all there you go. That's exactly right. So, so tell me about how you got into, serving in the, I guess y'all's air force.

Jonathan Knaul (07:11.853)
yeah.

Jonathan Knaul (07:20.149)
Yeah, I was Air Force. The Canadian Armed Forces are a unified service, with distinct uniforms for the three, actually we have four services within similar to you in some respects. But yeah, I was Air Force and all my flying, most of it was supporting the Army, supporting folks on the ground.

And then I was in and out of flight tests as well too where I was doing a multitude of activities for the global air force, so to speak.

James Moffitt (07:57.105)
Right. Were you, were you ever, did you ever fly support for, for groups on the troops on the ground and any kind of conflicts or whatever?

Jonathan Knaul (08:06.273)
Yeah, I did two deployments. I was deployed in Kosovo for six months just after NATO completed the bombing to stabilize the region. And that was all in support of ground troops. I was flying BEL 412s over there. And then deployed to Afghanistan about 10 years later in 2008, 2009, a very tumultuous time, in particular in Afghanistan. And there I commanded our Chinook contingent.

which was the first time actually that Canada had ever put helicopters into battle. And so I led that effort, which I'm very, you know, have a lot of mixed feelings when you look back at time in combat, but I'm certainly very proud. And there I was supporting troops. I mean, I was moving troops and equipment and getting the troops off those dangerous roads really was something that I feel.

tremendously good about it. There's no metal or promotion or amount of money or whatever that can compare to the look on a soldier's face on the back of my helicopter. So thankful to be off those roads. And I worked with all of our allied forces. So I had lots of gunship support from

Allied forces, including US, worked very intently with the US. Many times I was down here doing different operations and training with the US and of course in theater too, as I'm mentioning, and moved a lot of US troops as well too, and was protected by them.

James Moffitt (09:43.196)
So you can, can you fly jets too?

Jonathan Knaul (09:47.52)
I can, yeah, my early part of my career and by the way, that eight-year-old in you, that's still, you know, for me, inside me too. And I'm looking up at the sky every time too. I see aircraft go by even though it's my job. And, you know, it started off very early for me as wanting to be an astronaut because I don't remember when Neil Armstrong stepped foot on the moon. I was a year old, but I was apparently watching on TV with my mom.

I certainly remember when Lexi Leonov and Tom Stafford shook hands in space in 75 and then I was hooked. And yeah, I did start off flying jets too in the military. I decided to go into helicopters, but I am licensed to instruct in flight tests, both on fixed wing and helicopters now. But most of my effort these days is on helicopters. I just don't have time for much else.

James Moffitt (10:17.457)
Right.

James Moffitt (10:44.014)
I have always been impressed with people that are able to get their pilot's license and you know, you know, everybody loves top gun and, you know, I've seen the first one in the second one and it's just, incredible, the, training and the, know, the mental acuity that you must have to, you know, and you have to be physically fit too. I, probably wouldn't as big as I am, I probably wouldn't even fit in a cockpit. Right. So you have to be, you know, fit thin and trim and.

You know, his cockpits are not made for 300 pound people, right?

Jonathan Knaul (11:17.153)
Well, I have to stay fit all the time. I mean, it's a strenuous job. It's particularly demanding. It's not only the cockpit vibrations, the size of the cockpit. There's a lot of stresses that we deal with. Just for me, teaching flight test and flight test alone is very risky, but when you have to hand the controls to a student that ups the ante, so to speak. And out here in the...

James Moffitt (11:35.127)
I'm sure. I'm sure.

James Moffitt (11:44.667)
bit.

Jonathan Knaul (11:45.397)
Out here in Mojave, we deal with extreme temperatures too. It's a desert and it gets pretty hot. The engines don't perform particularly well as it gets hotter. Yeah, fitness is really important.

James Moffitt (11:49.84)
Right.

James Moffitt (11:56.573)
So what do you, what do you, what do you tell the student when you give him the controls are like, look, don't kill me. Please don't crash the plane.

Jonathan Knaul (12:05.323)
Yeah, sometimes the words come out of my mouth of don't mess up. And I might use another four letter word. But, you know, I have wonderful students. do at the National Test Pilot School. really have a tremendous, impressive cadre of instructors and staff, all extremely experienced test pilots, talented, gifted, not only them, but our technicians and our support staff.

And then the students, we got high quality students. So, you know, I really have good faith in them, but yeah, you know, but they're learning. So, you have to be very close on the controls when you hand them over and it's, yeah.

James Moffitt (12:46.316)
I would imagine that there's a lot of difference between teaching your 17 year old daughter how to drive a car versus teaching somebody how to fly a, you know, a helicopter or a jet fighter or something. like, you know, it's a, it's a world of difference. And I can imagine that the student themselves, the trainees probably already nervous as a cat on a tin roof anyway. So.

Jonathan Knaul (13:12.471)
Well, they are. And there's a lot of similarities, I think, to teaching your 17-year-old daughter because, you know, most parents don't have cars with a brake pedal on the right side like a driving school. So, you know, you're at the will of your daughter, so to speak, when you give them the controls. A little bit the same, although I do have controls on my side of the aircraft. But yeah, the students are nervous. They're under, it's also because they're under tremendous pressure to perform.

It's a year long course and it's very intense, lot of pressure and they can fail. If they fail, it's a career impact and it's a big deal. They're under a lot of pressure and I recognize that. I'm proud of them. I have good students all the time.

James Moffitt (14:03.612)
Well, thanks for sharing all of that. my listening audience. Might not care as much about that as I do, it's always.

Jonathan Knaul (14:10.733)
Well, that's all right. No, I'm happy to talk about it. think your audience would probably would be interested in it. I'll just before you go on, I'll reference you mentioned Top Gun, which I think Tom Cruise is a tremendous entertainer and he really cares about entertaining for the audience. That's his motive. And think he turns out great stuff. Top Guns are both Top Gun movies are wonderful. And certainly, you know, when that first one came out was around the time I went to the recruiting center.

and was a line up there, everybody wanted to be a pilot. So I already had it in my head from the time I was seven, eight years old like you, yeah, it's a fascinating business. It's a tremendous adventure and I'm lucky and privileged to be able to do it. So thanks for asking about it.

James Moffitt (14:39.355)
Right?

James Moffitt (14:42.853)
yeah.

James Moffitt (14:57.838)
Amen. All right. So let's switch gears a little bit and talk a little bit more about parenting adult children and self care and caregiving and taking care of loved ones. I know your book is about, you mentioned that you took care of your mother, you know, that you have content in your book about, I guess, as you were taking care of her and leading up to her.

passing on or whatever. I'm just assuming that I haven't read your book yet, but, talk a little bit about how you, transitioned into that role.

Jonathan Knaul (15:38.156)
Yeah, these things don't come by as choice, I would say by and large. And that was one of the reasons why I wrote the book. People end up caring for a loved one very seldom by choice. It happens. And it's a very hard go. So the book, I took care of both my parents through to their passings. And I really, it's very hard to care give.

and I wanted to make it a good guide and something was interesting. So I told the story, I have told the story of caring for both my parents through their stories as well. Both of them had extraordinary lives. My father was a Holocaust survivor. He was Polish and survived as a teenager, both internments at Auschwitz for a year and then in Ndukau and lost his entire family, save a half brother.

and then came to Canada as refugee. My mother, who was British, they were born in the same year, 1923. She lived through the whole bombing in London. At age 16, she went down to Dunkirk and helped out with the evacuation, just got on a boat and helped out like many civilians did. And her, at such a young age, was a breadwinner for the family, emigrated to Canada as well, and that's where my parents met. So...

You know, on that alone, they had these extraordinary lives I wanted to tell. And my mother was a particularly extraordinary character. My father was a Renaissance man. You know, I could talk about them all morning. And me, I have this career as a test pilot. So I saw a platform to talk about caregiving based on three lives. And I made an interesting read out of it because there are wonderful, amazing caregiving books out there. But I really wanted to make something that was compelling.

And the other thing was decided to be vulnerable. In my business as a test pilot and in the military, you know, showing emotion, being vulnerable, that's not the norm in my business. But I'm a really, really very sensitive person. I cry at movies and I'm happy to share that. don't care. And I saw an opportunity to be vulnerable too. And I wanted to do that because while the book is about

James Moffitt (17:45.82)
Bright, bright.

Jonathan Knaul (18:01.001)
me, my family, it's not for me, it's for the reader. And caregiving is just darn hard. So I brought all that together with that vulnerability so that I could help folks. And that's why also did the website that we mentioned earlier, where I'm building this network where I share tips and thoughts that I hope will help people in caregiving, because it's a lonely road and you're not alone.

James Moffitt (18:27.996)
I certainly want to get a copy of that book. I bet it's going to be an incredible read. And I hope my listening audience, if you're listening or watching this, I would encourage you to get a copy of it off of Amazon as well. And you know, it's a resource that you can read yourself, and you can also loan it out to friends and family. Caregiving, especially when it comes to parents, some people, some children,

They just opt, they opt out to put their, their loved ones in a care facility, you know, or a retirement home or whatever, and then go visit them once a month. Right. And, and for those people that do that can afford to do that. And that's the, that's the path that they choose. That's there's nothing negative about that. You know, that's, you know, as long as your loved one is getting adequate care, right. And you're not just dumping them off and forgetting about them. Right. But there's, think there's a different aspect of.

being hands-on and spending quality time. Obviously, have to, the burden to the family is tremendous, right? you can't, one child, unless you're an only child, one child can't be expected to foot the entire burden, right? And I don't know if you have sisters and brothers that were able to help you on that journey, but if...

It's a huge burden and it's a maybe burden is not the right word to use. It's a huge responsibility, right? And so I don't know your story on that aspect. Were you like the primary caregiver or how did that all work out?

Jonathan Knaul (20:14.605)
Yeah, you know, I'll talk in a little bit succession of both my father and my mother and how that played out. And I do have one older sibling, my sister Felicia, and who I'm very close with and who I admire tremendously. I'll say to listeners, and you mentioned about putting folks in a facility and just sort of letting them go in some respect.

I recognize that not everybody has a really good relationship with their parents. Some people have very complex or poor relationships with their loved ones. so caregiving can be seen more of a burden. Look, that was one of the reasons why I've been vulnerable in the book. I would love for the audience to hear that is that as far as my father went, he had terrible PTSD from

James Moffitt (20:50.715)
Right.

Jonathan Knaul (21:12.493)
his time in the camps. And growing up with him, for me was I had a very, very challenging childhood. It was very hard. And, and I've been quite honest about that. So my relationship with my father as much as I loved him was, was he was a, he really was kind of a monster for me as a child. But I loved him. He got sick when I was 15.

And so took care of him in the hospital. It only lasted about six months. It was stomach cancer, but this was the 80s and he needed a lot of care and I did it. And I also recognize as I've gotten older that his illness, his mental health illness was not his fault. So I still love my dad. But anyways, complex relationship and I get that point. My relationship with my mother was she was my best friend. She was...

very mentally healthy person until she got dementia. She lived until she was 90, almost 99. And I gave up my career and I didn't know I was going to get it back, but here I am. And I was able to keep it going. That's another story and took care of her. So through to the end as well, much later in life in my fifties, late, well, forties and fifties. So

James Moffitt (22:18.805)
wow.

Jonathan Knaul (22:39.423)
And I did end up putting her in a dementia care facility. It was the last year of her life. The decision to do that was very difficult. I took care of her in her home. I took care of her in her home because I wanted to and I wanted her to be in her home. But I came to the realization that you can't run a one bed caregiving home in your home. And I also came to the realization that I suffered caregiver burnout at some point.

and so I just couldn't care for her anymore. And we were able to afford it. And so I got her into dementia care facility. This was during COVID and my sister was living in Miami at the time. I was back in Toronto caring for my mother. So most of it fell on me. My sister did what she could, but she just physically could not be there. In the years previous, there were times when we shared it as my mother slowly declined. But when things got really bad, it

it came to me and it usually does fall to one child to do. so that was the case. But moving her into a facility was very hard. I really didn't want to do it and I had to trick her and I had to be dishonest with her because she didn't want to leave her home but I couldn't care for her anymore. And I just, before I give it back to James, want to mention that caregiver burnout piece that would probably be helpful to listeners.

I mean, we've talked, I've deployed twice. That included a lot of domestic operations here in North America as well too, through my career. I never suffered PTSD. It's an individualistic thing and I was very lucky and I didn't suffer it. I have lots of colleagues, friends, subordinates who did and have PTSD. And I grew up with a dad who had PTSD. There's a family in there of that

mental health condition that includes things like operational stress and caregiver burnout. And so I never expected to get caregiver burnout, but taking care of my mom, you know, despite everything I'd been through, that really did bring me to my knees. And I got to a point where when it happened, I never expected it. I recognized the symptoms and they were quite profound. And I knew I had to get some help for myself and I did. And I knew that I got to a point where

Jonathan Knaul (25:03.661)
I wasn't going be able to take care of her responsibly anymore because if I got sick, then what was going to happen to her because she could not take care of herself. So that was the point where we, my sister and I agreed that the right thing to do was to move her into a care facility that, and thankfully we could afford a good one. We were lucky and not everybody has that ability.

James Moffitt (25:10.566)
Right. Right.

James Moffitt (25:27.002)
Right. Well, in dementia is tough. And, you know, I've heard stories of how it becomes a really abusive relationship. You know, the person with dementia, don't recognize who you are. They don't know your, their son, you know, or what have you. I've not personally had to take care of somebody like that, but I can, you know, I've heard stories and

And I can only imagine how draining it is and how tough. I'm glad that you mentioned caregiver burnout. we, parenting adult children, we have parents that have kids between 30 or 18 years of age and 30. And a lot of times, because how expensive it is to live outside of the home, it's very hard for children.

adult children to launch out into the world and sustain, you know, a, a basic level of living to where they can pay rent, a mortgage, you know, all the utilities, all the deposits. And so a lot of times kids wind up coming back home until they can get their act together. and ultimately parents are caregivers, you know, you know, between 18 and 30, they're transitioning from preteen teenage years into an adult. And we become.

more of a mentor and more of a support system. And there's a monetary cost, there's a physical cost, there's an emotional cost, there's a psychological cost, right? And so parents are in a lot of ways caregivers to their adult children. And then as parents grow older, you know, it seems that before we kick off this rock, something, our health fails,

You know, or something, you know, somebody, somebody told me one day that, that none of us get out of this alive, you know, something, something's going to get us, whether it's, you know, living to 99 years of age and your heart finally giving out or a stroke or, know, what have you. we, we have a bridge run here, you know, across the Ravenel bridge. We have people from all over the world that come do this bridge run. And I've heard of, know, 36 year old men that were tri tri running triathlons and just imperfect.

Jonathan Knaul (27:29.613)
Yeah.

James Moffitt (27:52.913)
would appear to be perfect health. And they're running the bridge around and have a heart attack and die. Right. And you're like, Whoa, that wasn't expected, but none of us are guaranteed it tomorrow. Right. And so that we just have to live every day the best we can with what we have. And, part, you know, it's a circle of life or the cycle of life. We're born, we live, we die. it's a, death and taxes are two things that we'll never get away from. Right. And so.

parents are caregivers to a large degree. And then eventually, hopefully the kids become mature, self-sustaining, law-abiding, productive members of society. And if you have a good enough relationship with them and you get up into your years and you need help, you know, we enter into our second childhood as, as adults and, get dementia, cancer, whatever, whatever the ailments might be, but we're just not able to.

We get to a point that as adults, we're not able to take care of ourselves anymore. And it's a scary thought. I'm sure for a lot of parents that are, that are aging, that, you know, they're wondering, you know, especially if you don't have a good relationship with your kids and or your children are just not financially able to, we're mentally able or emotionally able to be caregivers. Right. And so then what are the parents going to do?

you know, and so I'm very thankful that you had a good enough relationship with your parents and were financially able to help them in their later years.

Jonathan Knaul (29:34.21)
Yeah, again, I was very lucky. mean, my parents came to Canada poor after what they've been through. they struggled, but they did okay financially. And my sister and I have good positions in life. we made it out on our own and did okay too. So, we were in a position where we were able to cope with those things financially. But not everybody is, as you've mentioned, and that's something I recognize.

And the other thing you said about, you know, children living in the home because it's very expensive to get on your own on your own these days. And that's the challenging thing. If you're, you know, in your 30s or even into your 40s and you're living at home with your parents or a parent, then you may very well not to your desire transition into a caregiving role because your parent is quite a bit older, you're living at home and now they're struggling and need your help. And it

just creeps in on you and it's not what you wanted in your life, but you're forced into doing some caregiving. so I recognize that that is really difficult. And again, one of the reasons why I tried to relate in that book to folks, some of the, all those tips and thoughts and things. So.

James Moffitt (30:57.062)
So how can your book help those who are caring for a loved one and who do you want to help with your book?

Jonathan Knaul (31:04.195)
you know, that's a part of me. That's a great question. It really is anybody who's caregiving. I want there to be a resource so they can turn to. So anybody who ends up in caregiving, I'd really like to help in that way. And that's what the book does. The book, I made it interesting. I know I did by linking these three lives and talking about it in a

And I go back and forth in history to do that. And also, I think it's, I have look again, I think I have 150 or 200 footnotes in the back and a very extensive bibliography. The point being that it gives a really, really good resource to people should they want to get more. And I wanted it to be there at their fingertips. So anybody who falls into caregiving, I want to give that help.

And, but I also think that the book offers just for anybody, good material on decision making. I've got a whole chapter on decision making. When you have to make decisions for in caregiving, it's really tough. And of course, I have a lot of training experience in decision making that could apply to anybody, whether you're caregiving or not. And I talk about mental fitness too.

And I use that term mental fitness instead of mental health, because certainly, as I mentioned, my mental health got compromised through caregiver burnout. But all my life, and I learned this in the military, and we all face stressful things in life. I mean, I'm talking about caregiving and flight tests, and those are particularly stressful, but we all face stressful things in life. And one thing I've practiced and I learned in the military was mental fitness.

That's just like physical fitness. I go to the gym to stay fit, not because I'm sick, but to stay fit so that I'm better able to cope with life and enjoy life and not get ill. There's things you can do for yourself too to stay mentally fit. Doing those things does not mean that you're mentally unhealthy. It means you're taking care of yourself. I promote some of those things in there too. Really, those things could help anybody, but really my audience is

Jonathan Knaul (33:28.119)
Hey, I'm caregiving and it's not what I plan to do and I don't know what to do. Because there's the thing, when you get struck with caregiving, things come up one at a time and you start networking with friends and colleagues. You're like, hey, this happened. I think I need to see a doctor or I have to take care of my parent in this way. I don't know what to do. And then you just do it bit by bit and it's not easy. It's really hard. So that's where I wanted to.

group all those things together and sort of make it a bit easier. And also that's why I'm developing this network through my website where I can offer people resources.

James Moffitt (34:11.994)
Yeah, that actually segues into the next question. says, can you tell us about the caregiving network you're building through subscribers to your website? Specifically, your newsletter is always finished with, you're not alone. What do you mean by that?

Jonathan Knaul (34:25.549)
Well, first of all, caregiving is a very, very lonely road. You can really get trapped into thinking, on my own. And it can be so incredibly frustrating. So I want to know, folks to know that what they're experiencing is not something that they just experienced on their own, that many people do, and that there's people out there they can talk with.

That's one of the reasons why I've been doing this network is to remind people you're not alone. That feeling of loneliness when you're caregiving can be overwhelming. so the newsletter is about coming out about once every three weeks. I keep it short and sweet and I just want to offer a tip or two or give an excerpt from my book or something that people can relate to that might help them. And then by building that network,

maybe they can reach out to folks to get help. I mean, here's an example. I haven't offered yet, I think, through my website where you can go for this. I'd rather folks try and find this on their own, but I had to find a support group that could help me deal with some of the emotions I was experiencing. And none of those types of stresses, emotions that I was experiencing was normal.

It wasn't indicative of me being mentally unhealthy. But initially when I looked around for, where can I get some help to deal with some of these stressors to talk about it? My initial attempts were, well, you have to subscribe to being a mental health patient and then you can enter this program and talk to specialists. And some folks might need that. I did not feel, and I'm sure I was not mentally unhealthy,

but I was having challenges and caregiver burnout was certainly something that arrived. And so I eventually was able to find a group where I could join in and talk about things and share experiences with others who were experiencing similar and get some resources without having to declare that I was somehow mentally unhealthy. But I'll make the point, when I did experience the caregiver burnout phase and I really did get there, then I did seek professional help. I really did need that.

Jonathan Knaul (36:47.949)
and it helped me out quite a bit. That was a particular thing where I want to make sure I stress that.

James Moffitt (36:56.006)
Good. Cause I know that sometimes there's a stigma attached to that. You know, sometimes people, you know, one of the things I always tell people, especially mothers, practicing self care is not selfish. Right. you have to take care of yourself. You have to, know, be, go to the gym, go for walks, go to Starbucks and get a latte.

Go out, to the beach, go out to a lake and sit by the water, do whatever it is that you need to get centered again and to release some of that stress and to get focused, get refocused on who you are and becoming the best you that you can be. Because if you're beat up, worn out, stressed out, you're of no good to anybody, including yourself.

So that's good stuff. someone, go ahead.

Jonathan Knaul (37:53.838)
Oh, yeah. It's, well, I was just going to say it's the passenger on an airliner oxygen mask analogy. You're always told that if the oxygen masks drop, if there's a cabin depressurization, parents put on your oxygen mask first and then your children or your child because you can't help them if you pass out.

So that's really the analogy. Yeah, it's not selfish. And again, that's why I eventually put my mother into, or my sister and I agreed to put her into a facility where she could be properly cared for because I got to the point where I just couldn't anymore and she needed the care she did. yeah, through it all, I did the best to take care of myself, which was in my mother's best interest as well as mine.

James Moffitt (38:41.82)
good. So for someone caring for a loved one, what are your three top tips that would help them now?

Jonathan Knaul (38:49.145)
Another really good question. One in particular, I think this one you can do early and it's a tough conversation. Thankfully, my mother had done this and my sister and I knew about it very early on was that she established power of attorney. Power of attorney of care over her body was given to my sister and I and well established.

There's lots of people, that's a difficult conversation. People don't want to have it. I understand that. The problem is when there is no power of attorney established, then care, depending where you live, whatever country or whatever states, falls to the government, falls to some entity. Family member, there's no power of attorney. Somebody has to make decisions. So it's decisions and...

and it's not going to be a family member very likely. That's an awful situation to be in. I do encourage people to have that tough conversation and establish a power of attorney. It's in the best interest of your loved one and you as well. I think number two would be

And that's hard too, is try and make some plans. Many people don't want to do that as we get older. We just want to be on our own, do our thing. But unfortunately, as we started off saying, every time you see yourself on video, you get another surprise. Every time I see a picture of myself, do I recognize that person? So we can't get away from aging.

James Moffitt (40:35.941)
Right.

Jonathan Knaul (40:40.717)
I'm fit, but I'm not 18 anymore. so we all decline as we get older. Some planning would be a good thing to do if you can. It's helpful. And I think I hadn't really thought about the number three, but if I try and pull something off the top of my head, I think it's to try and recognize

James Moffitt (41:00.572)
That's all right.

Jonathan Knaul (41:11.085)
Emotions objectively. This is a very difficult one To do you know in working with my sister who I loved dearly and how I respect tremendously We had our challenges taking care of our mother and we had our debates In dealing with my mother and doing my father I experienced a lot of emotions But I got to a point where I I tried to Sometimes successfully sometimes not recognize that

Emotions are signposts. Emotions are normal reactions. And when you're under stress, you experience emotion. And if you can try and park those off on the side and say, I recognize I'm experiencing that emotion, that's normal. I'll try and just put it on the side and recognize what it is and try and use my logical mind and think a little more clearly because, and it's a very difficult thing to do. Emotions,

cloud judgment. Emotions are the enemy of good decision quite often. Sometimes they're the friend of good decision too, but they can very often be the enemy of good decision. It's dealing with emotions and trying to recognize in many cases that experiencing emotions under stress is normal. It's how we deal with that.

James Moffitt (42:19.739)
Right?

Jonathan Knaul (42:37.441)
that we struggle with. And so if I could give a top tip, number three, I'd say do the best to step outside of yourself. Not easy to do.

James Moffitt (42:46.574)
Right? Well, I do a lot of reading on medium and substacks and I do a lot of writing too, but I like to read and there are several, newsletters, authors that I subscribe to. And, one of them, one of them, can't remember what it's called right off the top of my head, aging or something like that. It's basically, written.

four and two baby boomers and people that are getting up in age and talking about what it means to age and all the fun and not so fun things that happen to you as you grow older. And one of the subjects that comes up quite frequently is end of life planning, which means that we as seniors need to love our families enough to

do that critical end of life planning, get your, get your affairs in order. this one lady said that she has a, has a three ring binder where she writes everything down or prints everything out. She has different sections, ones for checking accounts, savings accounts, IRAs, 401s, real estate information, you know, getting the, the, the, you know, power of attorney to one of the kids so that they can be.

signers and executors of their estate and all of that, you know, and, and as a senior, I have a living will, my wife has a living will and we have it printed out and it's in my desk drawer. And I probably need to give my son a copy of it. He's an attorney and probably he is the, probably the child of choice that I would want him to have power of attorney and have all that information.

And you hear stories where, you know, parents loved ones, you know, they just living life, you know, and they haven't done those things. They've let that slip or they haven't thought about it or nobody's encouraged them to do it or whatever. You know? And so if you're, if you're in the listening audience and you have parents that are getting up there in age, pick a time.

James Moffitt (45:11.388)
It's, it's not a pleasant conversation. You know, I don't know if you do it over coffee. I don't know if you have a drink at a bar, a family dinner, whatever, go for a walk on a beach or in the woods or, whatever. And say, mom, Hey dad, I hate to bring this up, but do you have a will, you know, how, how do know it's, it's not, it's not a comfortable conversation for either one, you know? And so, but, but it's so important that, your, your parent.

Jonathan Knaul (45:28.429)
No, it.

James Moffitt (45:40.964)
does adequate planning because if they don't do adequate planning, we'll say they have, God forbid they have a heart attack or stroke and they wind up in intensive care or whatever. And now all of a sudden they're not of sound mind. And, and all of a sudden you don't have power of attorney. And like you said, government, some government official or agency is going to have to step in and make decisions that may or may not, line up with their.

Their desires are the family, the family's desires, right?

Jonathan Knaul (46:14.721)
Yeah, I can tell you a couple of things here or tell the listeners a couple of things that I think might be helpful. You know, in my business, I've lost a lot of friends over the years suddenly. That's the nature of the business I'm in. At every stage in the military, depending on where I was posted to, and now as a civilian working in a, you know, in a test pilot school, very similar.

I have to provide information of next of kin emergency contacts. actually where I work right now, and the same, I had to provide wills and all that information had to be there because, and I've seen it happen, you know, again, lost a lot of people in my business that I knew, I cared about. And when it happened suddenly to have those documents that say,

here's where all the particulars are and be able to go to the family and walk around with that piece of paper and have that script that will help you out. my gosh, if that did not exist, I can tell you it would be catastrophic on top of something that's already catastrophic of somebody dying. In many cases in my business, these are young people with families that have sadly left us in tragic ways.

James Moffitt (47:32.838)
Sure.

Jonathan Knaul (47:44.898)
That's really important. And my documents right now that are available at the Test Pod school include information of my digital life. Because that's even the more the tough thing is how do get into when somebody goes, how do get into their cell phone and how do you get onto their accounts and get all that information so you can deal with all that administrative stuff, which is very painful when somebody leaves you, leaves us suddenly.

James Moffitt (47:56.956)
Sure.

Jonathan Knaul (48:11.521)
But the other thing I wanted to give an example with my mother, because my mother, as I mentioned earlier, did a lot of planning, made sure power of attorney was established, made sure her will was well established over many years. that information was given primarily to myself, offered to my sister too, but she just was busy and she was like, don't worry about it. So, but what happened was when my mother,

got dementia, my sister said, I'd like to see the will. And I'm like, absolutely, here it is. there was a surprise in there that caught us both. I didn't expect it. And the surprise, I'm not talking about a financial item, but my mother had planned her internment. she thought she had done it carefully, but she had made a critical error that we had to deal with.

And we dealt with it successfully, but it was tough. if I have, I can probably get it out in a minute or two, if that's okay. I'll try and give the story quickly. But my mother had said, look, I want to be cremated. the lawyers over the years had challenged her a couple of times and said, are you sure? And she's like, yeah, when I die, I want to be cremated. And so it had been revisited a number of times in her will and it was there. The problem is,

James Moffitt (49:18.352)
Yeah, go ahead.

Jonathan Knaul (49:39.23)
I come from a Jewish family and both my parents were Jewish. Jewish law by and large does not allow cremation. So we had a problem. I knew that my mother wanted to be cremated. I'm not a religious person. That's what she wanted. Good, fine. I was going to honor it. My sister did not see it that way. And she had the right to feel that way, absolutely. My mother had also planned and

James Moffitt (49:48.959)
Jonathan Knaul (50:08.695)
paid for a burial or to be interred next to her husband or father. But that plot did not allow cremated remains to be buried. It had to be a body. So we had a problem. how are we going to resolve that? my feeling was, let's do what our mother wanted. It's in her will. That's her will. Let's go forward. My sister was like, I can't accept that.

You know, this was in the last, we discovered it about, I mean, we didn't know how much longer our mother was going to last, but it was about a year and a half before she died. So I said, let's talk to her and see what she really wants. How can we do that? She's got dementia and that's such a difficult topic. I'm like, let's do it. So, you know, we got together with our rabbi.

We had to do this during COVID. My sister was in the States. I was in Toronto with my mom. It was like I'm talking to you, James. We had the rabbi joining virtually and we went through this. We had to do three meetings. We did it very, very carefully. We approached it in a very compassionate way. But we got to resolution of, you paid for a burial site. You know, part of the family would prefer that you just be buried.

are you okay with that? Really hard thing to talk about. We did it not quite that coldly as I just came out with it, but we did it in a very compassionate way and we had to find creative ways to communicate because my mother had dementia. But on emotional level, she was pretty clear and we got to resolution where she said, if you guys are, I'd like to stay around as long as possible. I hope to live until I'm 200. That was her mind at the time.

James Moffitt (51:32.044)
yeah, I'm sure.

James Moffitt (51:55.388)
Sure. absolutely.

Jonathan Knaul (51:58.466)
But if this is what you would make everybody happy, go ahead and do that. And then when the day came that my mother died, which is a very emotionally challenging time when you lose somebody, no matter how old they are, we had a plan that everybody agreed upon, including my mom, who had just left us. And so we happily, and I say that in a careful context, we lovingly and happily

James Moffitt (52:13.254)
Right.

Jonathan Knaul (52:28.325)
put her to rest as a body in a coffin buried where she agreed to be. But that was very difficult. So I tell that story if that might be helpful to folks to give you an idea of those challenging topics.

James Moffitt (52:41.539)
sure.

James Moffitt (52:46.138)
No, and nobody, nobody looks forward to checking off this rock, right? we all want to live, you know, happy, fulfilling lives physically and mentally. but, you know, we, we all know that, that, that, what's, what's that movie, something destinations. forget what it's called something about, you know, I forget what the, it's, it's a movie about.

Jonathan Knaul (53:10.066)
which one was that? But what was the plot?

James Moffitt (53:15.26)
Uh, the plot was, uh, where, uh, these young adults, teenagers, preteens, whatever, uh, they kept, they kept defeating death. Like, and they, they, uh, it was called something destinations, but anyway, you know, ultimately, even though they, they, they cheated death, uh, eventually they came to their own demise too. And I don't, I don't remember. I think I watched the, there are several of them. I watched the first one, like, I don't know, two decades ago or whatever. Uh, but you know, I say all that to say that, you know, we.

Jonathan Knaul (53:23.574)
Hmm.

Jonathan Knaul (53:36.001)
Yeah.

James Moffitt (53:45.457)
We all want to live as long as we possibly can. we want, you know, it's like, told my wife, I'm like, look, if I, if I get to the point, if I have a stroke or, know, I'm, you know, drooling on myself 24 seven, just take one of the guns out of my safe and just put it into it. Cause I, I don't, I'm not going to be happy. I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to be cognizant of what's going on around me. And nobody wants to be a burden on their, on their loved ones. And of course she would never do that, but.

You know, you know, I think in our, in our, I think in my living will, I basically say that, if, if the situation I'm in, if the doctors are able to apply life saving measures and bring me to a point where my quality of life is adequate, then yes, do that. But, but, you know, if, if that's not going to happen, if they, if everybody looks and doctors say, we can do all of this, but

It's not going to save him. You know, then I, you know, my, you know, do not resuscitate orders there. It's like, you know, if you, if it gets to that point, then, you know, pull the plug, don't resuscitate and just let me go because I don't want to be a vegetable and I don't want my, my loved ones to have to deal with, you know, you know, I remember my, my ex-wife, her dad was a, police officer and, this was many years ago.

she and I got married. The marriage didn't last very long. We only stayed married for two years or something like that. Come to find out we were not ready for that sort of commitment and we should, it should have never happened, but anyway, it did anyway. Her dad was, had gotten a job as a investigator with the district attorney's office in Houston, Texas. And I think the day of, or the day before he was supposed to take on that new role, he had a stroke and,

And it did a lot of damage and he, he was in a bed, you know, in a hospital bed at his house for, I think something like three years. He never came out of it. You know, he was not aware of his surroundings. And so her family had to, you know, they became caregivers, caregivers, you know, and I remember taking my, that, that time, my ex-wife over to his house, you know, and his, his,

James Moffitt (56:11.76)
her mom and him, she was taking care of him basically. And I remember, you know, how difficult just from the outside looking in, I could tell how difficult that situation was. so, yeah, it's just so important. So critical that, you know, our loved ones are prepared, you know, and have the, have the wills in place and you know,

Do not resuscitate or I want to be cremated or I want to be buried and you know, all those, all those conversations need to happen way before it comes time to deal with it. Right. And because there's nothing, like you said, it's already an emotionally charged catastrophic event when you lose a loved one like that, no matter what the situation is, whether it's old age or whether it's a, you know, a test pilot having an accident or whatever.

You know, whatever the situation is, uh, it's, it's, it's a very horrible event to have to deal with. know, on top of that, you don't want to, you know, be faced with, shit, they didn't have a will. And now what are we going to do? You know, and then you got probate lawyers to get involved and all sort, all manner of stuff, you know, uh, that has to go through the probate courts and they're not always going to make.

the decisions that the family are going to be happy with. Right. so anyway, horrible, horrible, horrible subject, but it's something that needs to be discussed. Absolutely.

Jonathan Knaul (57:46.658)
Yeah, it's a tough one. So and I get that. But yeah, you know, you hit the nail on the head. Tough topic, but things are better if you can, can do those that planning and have and have those discussions ahead of time.

James Moffitt (57:58.875)
Yes, for everybody, at least, at least it'll, it'll help the family anyway. so Jonathan, I want to give you, like two or three minutes for like a elevator speech to talk to the listening audience and talk about your book, your website, whatever you want to talk about.

Jonathan Knaul (58:05.388)
Yeah.

Jonathan Knaul (58:16.129)
gosh, you know, James, that's really nice. I wasn't expecting that. I think we already did that. I just encourage people to go to the site, finalapproachbook.com, one word where you can subscribe. Again, you'll get the newsletter every three weeks or so. They're short, they're sweet. You can purchase the book on the site or you can purchase it. It's widely distributed.

at any venue. It exists in all forms. So it's out in paperback, hardcover, ebook, and audiobook narrated by me for real. I didn't use AI. I spent about 40 hours in the studio doing that out here at 100 degrees Celsius. That's another, sorry, Fahrenheit. I'm Canadian. And so out here in the desert in California in the studio. But...

James Moffitt (58:59.548)
wow.

Jonathan Knaul (59:13.421)
Yeah, I think we covered all that. I encourage people. It's an interesting book in terms of the fact that, again, I brought together what I think are three extraordinary, very much out of the ordinary lives and interesting to tell that story about caregiving. And I really wanted to make it useful. If you do read the book, thank you.

And please leave a review anywhere, your favorite vendor or on Goodreads. That's very helpful and helps build this network to remind people that are caregiving, you're not alone. So again, I think we covered it, James. So thanks for the elevator opportunity. But I think we touched on everything. I will say we've had a very serious conversation, one I've very much enjoyed, mind you.

but the book has its sense of humor in there as well too, because my mother was a cross between Queen Elizabeth and Betty White, and she had a very, very witty sense of humor. I introduced things in there to keep it rolling. So you'll find that in the book as well.

James Moffitt (01:00:16.348)
I bet.

James Moffitt (01:00:23.196)
That's awesome. Well, uh, my, my passion is for parents and cause I, my wife and I would been married 35 years. have four children. Unfortunately, unfortunately, two of them have already gone passed on, but I still have two. One's an attorney and a downtown Charleston. And I have a daughter that is still trying to find herself. I uh, love her to death. But anyway, um,

Jonathan Knaul (01:00:33.195)
Wow, congratulations. It's fantastic.

I'm so sorry.

James Moffitt (01:00:53.404)
So yeah, I always like having these tough conversations about caregiving because you know, we all eventually, no matter what stage of life we're in, whether you're a parent or whether you're the child, you're going to be faced with caregiving, maybe even both sides of the fence. Right. So thank you, Jonathan, for being here and for sharing your heartfelt story.

Some of it was probably not very easy to share. Thank you for, for your being a vulnerable and, telling the story for our listeners and to the listening audience. want to say thank you for the privilege of your time. Thank you for listening to the podcast. if you would, if you're on Apple podcast and you listen to an episode, you can write there on the app on your phone or your computer or tablet, you can just leave a review. would highly recommend that you go to Jonathan's website and if you can.

Order the book, ebook, hardback, paperback, however you want to do it and read it and pass it along to a loved one so that it can help them as well. come out with a, video episode that'll be uploaded to rumble.com and to YouTube. you get a search for James Moffat and you'll find it. and, the audio version, goes to Buzzsprout.

which has an RSS feed that goes out to Spotify, Apple podcasts, I heart radio, public radio, and several other ones that there's like a whole list of podcasts, hosting providers that host, your RSS feed. You can almost not, not get my podcast, for your book. Cause it's everywhere. It's all over. It's all over the internet. It's it's going to outlive all of us. It'll be there for, for eternity.

Jonathan Knaul (01:02:41.067)
You

James Moffitt (01:02:43.374)
As long as there's an internet and as long as Skynet doesn't actually happen and take out the world. Right. So anyway, bye bye everybody. Thanks, Jonathan.

Jonathan Knaul (01:02:52.237)
Thank you very much, James. Thank you, a real pleasure. And thank you again to the listeners and viewers. Real pleasure and an honor to be on here. Thank you.